Chamberlain vs Oates-Post War

Gettysburg Greg

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
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Decatur, Illinois
The fighting in Gettysburg may have ended on July 3rd, 1863, but the fighting over what happened began soon after the battle and continues today. One of the more interesting disputes over what actually happened on the southern spur of Little Round Top was between Colonel William Oates and Colonel Joshua Chamberlain. Oates claimed his regiment, the 15th Alabama had once broken through the line of the 20th Maine. Oates claimed his brother, John had been wounded behind the Union line and was dragged behind a large rock where he was shot again and finally died. That boulder, now known as Oates Rock, was where Colonel Oates proposed placing a marker specifying this is where the Alabama Regiment had advanced to and where his brother died. The 1900 proposal was rejected by both the Battlefield authorities as well as General Chamberlain who disputed Oates' claim that the line of the 20th Maine had been broken. The marker was never placed even though Oates proposed paying for it himself. The inscription was to read: To the memory of Lt. John A. Oates
and his gallant Comrades who fell here
July 2nd, 1863. The 15th Ala. Regt.,
over 400 strong reached this spot, but
for lack of support had to retire.
Below is my photo of Oates Rock, notice the wall designating the Union line about 50 yards in front of the boulder.
275991908_7490398387667244_9180335499960258101_n.jpg
 
I've marked this thread to see what the experts have to say, but my own humble opinion is that a lot of trees look alike and I don't think anyone is lying, they are just telling it as they remember it. I believe some of Oates men claimed to have reached near the top of the "mountain" which the Maine men vehemently denied after the war.

Given how Chamberlain bent back the line on the left, (one account referred to it as a hairpin shape and the two Union wings fighting with their backs to each other) I can see how Confederates on the extreme left of the Union line may have seen themselves as much farther up on Little Round Top than say, the Union men on the extreme right of the line.
 
The idea that a particular boulder could be precisely recalled by an actively engaged participant (unless it had a distinctive feature) in a brief moment of time, on a battlefield that was covered with such boulders, is rather amazing. The 20th Maine, on the other hand, held that ground for some time, therefore it is expected that its members would have a clearer recollection of their immediate surroundings and position with respect to terrain features. That said, most folks put the best possible spin on their accomplishments and downplay their own shortcomings, which makes sifting out the truth a challenge when trying to piece togther past events. Also, the nature of such fighting might include considerable movement back and forth over a given piece of ground.
 
The idea that a particular boulder could be precisely recalled by an actively engaged participant (unless it had a distinctive feature) in a brief moment of time, on a battlefield that was covered with such boulders, is rather amazing. The 20th Maine, on the other hand, held that ground for some time, therefore it is expected that its members would have a clearer recollection of their immediate surroundings and position with respect to terrain features. That said, most folks put the best possible spin on their accomplishments and downplay their own shortcomings, which makes sifting out the truth a challenge when trying to piece togther past events. Also, the nature of such fighting includes considerable movement back and forth over a given piece of ground.
Agree. Who really knows...perhaps Chamberlain himself stood on the rock to get a better view of upcoming 15th Ala. on the slope. Without actually being there, we can only speculate. Perhaps there was an incident or action involving THAT rock recalled after the war. Personally, I have been to several fishing spots that I remember a trivial detail about the area. Not comparing fishing to a battle, but sympathizing with the idea that we all remember things for a reason. Sometimes that reason is triggered by the detail that associates the spot, item or detail to the main action. Hope this makes sense.
And yes sifting the truth is sometimes a difficult process even when the story is told by one who was there. The possible spin may be to cover up as you mentioned or the memory of the action afterwards. The fish I caught off that rock was probably not THIS big, but memorable at the time. Just as this response may not make sense, but did when I wrote it.
 
I don't remember where I read it, but I distinctly recall learning that John Oates was ill that day, and rightfully could have been on the sick list. It is an interesting contrast to the Chamberlain brothers who both came through this fight unscathed. I have often asked visitors on a tour to consider what it would be like for William Oates to return home and explain to the family how it was that his younger brother's life was lost under William's command.

Some visitor's find it interesting to learn that both William Oates and Joshua Chamberlain both served as governor of their respective states after the war.
 
I don't remember where I read it, but I distinctly recall learning that John Oates was ill that day, and rightfully could have been on the sick list. It is an interesting contrast to the Chamberlain brothers who both came through this fight unscathed. I have often asked visitors on a tour to consider what it would be like for William Oates to return home and explain to the family how it was that his younger brother's life was lost under William's command.

Some visitor's find it interesting to learn that both William Oates and Joshua Chamberlain both served as governor of their respective states after the war.
John Oates story is in Phanz's second day book. I agree with others here that in a quick moment of time, how do you remember that rock or tree? It seems to me, that you would be more interested in who is shooting at you. I always tell my tours "near here", there is no way to know the exact spot.
Phil
 
From the Notes of "In the Hands of Providence..." (on p. 441-442) the author notes that the right flank of the 20th Maine, and the left of the 83rd Pennsylvania remained in close proximity, and kept the rebs off of Chamberlain's right flank. When unit markers were planted on the battlefield in 1869, the right of the 20th and left of the 83rd were signified by a single marker.

Today, however, on the battleground, the author notes the markers for the right of the 20th (which is slightly downhill, and according to Oates, 40 steps from the boulder in question) is 80 yards (240 feet) southeast from the left marker of the 83rd PA. Which of these flank markers is more accurately placed, and why, is unknown evidently.

Here's a view of the 83rd's left flank marker stone, with the regimental monument nearby:

1648407425979.png


The right flank marker of the 20th Maine is a short distance away.

From Oates' official report, notice that his line initially was on a ledge of rocks, the left flank at a very large rock; when it served as the pivolt for his line, wheeling left, to another ledge of rocks, perpendicular to the first ledge (on the left of which was the large rock).

1648405285624.png


So he claims his line formed on a ledge of rocks, and from a boulder to his left, as pivot, wheeled to the left to put his men on a perpendicular ledge of rocks; something like this:

1648407055690.png


Here is how Oates explained the action in his post-war book:

1648408748281.png

1648408871070.png




And this is from Chamberlain's official report:

"In order to commence by making my right firm, I formed my regiment on the right into line, giving such direction to the line as should best secure the advantage of the rough, rocky, and straglingly wooded ground. The line faced generally toward a more conspicuous eminence southwest of ours, which is known as Sugar Loaf, or Round Top. Between this and my position intervened a smooth and thinly wooded hollow. My line formed, I immediately detached Company B, Captain Morrill commanding, to extend from my left flank across this hollow as a line of skirmishers, with directions to act as occasion might dictate, to prevent a surprise on my exposed flank and rear.
The artillery fire on our position had meanwhile been constant and heavy, but my formation was scarcely complete when the artillery was replaced by a vigorous infantry assault upon the center of our brigade to my right, but it very soon involved the right of my regiment and gradually extended along my entire front. The action was quite sharp and at close quarters. In the midst of this, an officer from my center informed me that some important movement of the enemy was going on in his front, beyond that of the line with which we were engaged. Mounting a large rock, I was able to see a considerable body of the enemy moving by the flank in rear of their line engaged, and passing from the direction of the foot of Great Round Top through the valley toward the front of my left. The close engagement not allowing any change of front, I immediately stretched my regiment to the left, by taking intervals by the left flank, and at the same time "refusing" my left wing, so that it was nearly at right angles with my right, thus occupying about twice the extent of our ordinary front, some of the companies being brought into single rank when the nature of the ground gave sufficient strength or shelter. My officers and men understood my wishes so well that this movement was executed under fire, the right wing keeping up fire, without giving the enemy any occasion to seize or even to suspect their advantage. But we were not a moment too soon; the enemy's flanking column having gained their desired direction, burst upon my left, where they evidently had expected an unguarded flank, with great demonstration.

We opened a brisk fire at closes range, which was so sudden and effective that they soon fell back among the rocks and low trees in the valley, only to burst forth again with a shout, and rapidly advanced, firing as they came. They pushed up to within a dozen yards of us before the terrible effectiveness of our fire compelled them to break and take shelter. They renewed the assault on our whole front, and for an hour the fighting was severe. Squads of the enemy broke through our line in several places, and the fight was literally hand to hand. The edge of the fight rolled backward and forward like a wave. The dead and wounded were now in our front and then in our rear. Forced from our position, we desperately recovered it, and pushed the enemy down to the foot of the slope. The intervals of the struggle were seized to remove our wounded (and those of the enemy also), to gather ammunition from the cartridge-boxes of disabled friend or foe on the field, and even to secure better muskets than the Enfields, which we found did not stand service well. Rude shelters were thrown up of the loose rocks that covered the ground. Captain Woodward, commanding the Eighty-third Pennsylvania Volunteers, on my right, gallantly maintaining his fight, judiciously and with hearty co-operation made his movements conform to my necessities, so that my right was at no time exposed to a flank attack."

So even Chamberlain notes his left wing swung backwards to near a right angle, giving up the ground of their original line; something like this:
1648406936072.png


but his right, aided by the 83rd PA generally held (Oates notes the right of his antagonists were fixed in place somewhere near the large rock on his left).

However, in the subsequent fighting "squads" of Confederates broke through his line in "Several" places, which he does not specify. Nor does he specify if any of these "squads" were bearing the color of the 15th Alabama... Oates says the federals counterattacked him five times. Chamberlain confirms, and admits "the edge of the fight rolled backward and forward like a wave" passing over the casualties, US and CS, in front to leave them in their rear, etc.; Theodore Gerrish of the 20th confirms this:
1648411592005.png



And Chamberlain reports the 20th was indeed "forced from our position" but that this was forcibly recovered. And of course, after a time, his regiment's final attack swept the ground of Oates' regiment.
 
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John Oates story is in Phanz's second day book. I agree with others here that in a quick moment of time, how do you remember that rock or tree? It seems to me, that you would be more interested in who is shooting at you. I always tell my tours "near here", there is no way to know the exact spot.
Phil

Generally I'd agree with you, but I think Oates has some extenuating circumstances that need to be looked at.

This is anecdotal, but I can still vividly recall details of the terrain from some battles that I participated in during reenactments. If I could teleport right now to those "battlefields" I'd probably remember where I was during the faux-battle. I think it must have to do with doing something so out of the ordinary that your senses are very heightened. The amount of times in my life that I fired faked musketry at other people were so few and far between that those moments are highlighted in my memory. Actual combat would (obviously) be five million times more intense than what I did, so it wouldn't surprise me if they remembered details like a certain rock, etc. Plus, I think their memories might especially be good about a place as unique as LRT. I've been hiking quite a bit and I've rarely seen a place that looks like that with all those boulders and things. Additionally his brother died next to this rock. I'm sure witnessing his brother die before his eyes even heightened the mental trauma of that moment for Oates.

Reasons I think Oates' memory of this particular rock might be legit:
- combat was a rare experience, even for these vets of the ANV, so this heightens sensory perception; time slows down, etc.
- the terrain is pretty unique. It's hardly just a random farmer's field.
- more likely to recall a spot where a loved one died
- as the commanding officer he had to pay more attention to the terrain than a grunt just loading and shooting.
- he had to write an AAR while the memory of that event was still fresh, so writing it down likely reinforced his initial memories from the event.

sidebar: If I had ever done interpreting at a battlefield like Shiloh or Chickamauga then I probably would have used your exact words i.e. "near here", but my only experience working at a park was when I interpreted at Vicksburg and there's no "near here" about it with Vicksburg, haha. Unit locations are about as good as they can possibly get at a place like that since it was stagnant for **** near two months. Those vets upon returning and placing their unit markers undoubtedly knew exactly where they were during the siege.
 
The dispute over the rock and marker was more than just locating as spot on the battlefield. Chamberlain was already famous for his role in defending LRT and saving the Union. Much of that depended on controlling the memory of that portion of the battle. After Oates request for the LRT monument mentioned earlier in the thread was denied by the park commissioners, Glenn Lafantasie says in Gettysburg Requiem (2006) "What they may have recognized without saying so was the degree to which Oates hoped to gain control over the memory of Little Round Top--over how future generations would comprehend the battle, how the legacies of victory and defeat would be remembered, how the past itself might be manipulated for present and future purposes." (300) Chamberlain had more clout than Oates and his version prevailed in a park that represented one of the Union's greatest triumphs.
 
While I agree it would be difficult to identify a specific battlefield location in the middle of a fight I think it is easier to remember when it is the location where your brother was wounded and died. Chamberlan spent many years extoling his heroics during the Battle of Gettysburg but I think his roll was no more important to saving the union than those of General Warren and Col. Patrick O'Rorke and the 140th New York (from Rochester, NY).
 
The idea that a particular boulder could be precisely recalled by an actively engaged participant (unless it had a distinctive feature) in a brief moment of time, on a battlefield that was covered with such boulders, is rather amazing. The 20th Maine, on the other hand, held that ground for some time, therefore it is expected that its members would have a clearer recollection of their immediate surroundings and position with respect to terrain features. That said, most folks put the best possible spin on their accomplishments and downplay their own shortcomings, which makes sifting out the truth a challenge when trying to piece togther past events. Also, the nature of such fighting might include considerable movement back and forth over a given piece of ground.
Normally, I would agree. But my memory is that this is the largest boulder in this area and when you are there it is quite prominent. The terrain is not like the terrain to the right on Vincent's Spur, where boulders are strewn all over the place. This part of the spur has lots of little rocks, but not large boulders like this one is.
 
We don't know today which rock Oates proposed for the requested monument. There are a lot of large boulders there. What I have always found interesting about this issue is that Chamberlain originally did NOT oppose the idea of a 15th Alabama marker. It was only after Oates specified the location where he wanted the thing to be that Chamberlain turned against the idea. I have looked at it this way: The former governor of Maine did not fight the idea proposed by the former governor of Alabama. However, the commander of the 20th Maine vehemently disputed the location submitted by the commander of the 15th Alabama. Once the debate began over where the thing might go, Chamberlain (the old soldier) used his influence to turn the Park against the idea and that ended the matter. Winners build battlefield parks, losers visit battlefield parks.
 

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