Cartridges

[thomas aagaard]

wonder why he is using hardee's 1855 manual of arms and not his revised... or Gilham's for that matter. (not saying it is wrong... just find it a bit strange)

And he is mixing up the directions... you load with your front toward the enemy... so since he face the camera when loading he should be firing at the camera... but I guess he dont want to shot the cameraman...

 

[Drew]

wonder why he is using hardee's 1855 manual of arms and not his revised... or Gilham's for that matter. (not saying it is wrong... just find it a bit strange)

And he is mixing up the directions... you load with your front toward the enemy... so since he face the camera when loading he should be firing at the camera... but I guess he dont want to shot the cameraman...

I suspect when you are getting shot at, "the manual" goes out the window. Like, fast. Operating these weapons in the heat of the moment had to be one tough test.

 

[thomas aagaard]

Well, I don't agree. When in combat you fall back on your training...
(that is at least what my friends of mine who have been in combat tell me... and the same is the conclusion of a resent survey looking into how danish soldiers reacted when shot at for the first time)
When we are talking handling weapons and similar one man stuff..

Anyway, he is not trying to show how things was done in combat. He is showing how to load a musket. And he do it rather correctly by the Hardee's 1855 manual of arms.(with the noted exception of not shooting the cameraman) And I just wonder why he don't use the Hardee revised or Gilham.

 

[thomas aagaard]

here is a new youtube clip of the british way of doing it.

A good number of differences. With a much more clear focus on actually hitting the enemy....

 

[Poor Private]

wonder why he is using hardee's 1855 manual of arms and not his revised... or Gilham's for that matter. (not saying it is wrong... just find it a bit strange)

And he is mixing up the directions... you load with your front toward the enemy... so since he face the camera when loading he should be firing at the camera... but I guess he dont want to shot the cameraman...

And that was part of the problem different regiments were taught different manuals. There were a plethera of manuals out there don't forget Caseys, and a couple of others. State units(volunteers) were taught what the state directed. Not neccessarily what the government units were taught. And alot of the state units were made up of local militias, and they were taught with what manuals were available to them locally, or what the "old" local ex-soldier knew.
So it comes down to what time of the war, and what theater, and who commands.

 

[Poor Private]

The standard cartridge box carried forty. Often, just before a shootout, extra rounds were issued which would have to be carried in pockets. The government supplied them. If the shootout lasted a long time - such as with those entrenched - ammunition would have to be brought up to the lines to replenish that originally issued.

Cartridges came in packs of 10 with an additional "cartridge" in the pack that contained 11 caps(if I remember the amount right). They go in the cartridge box in the tins with 10 per compartment, and the caps in the cap pouch, for the total of 40 cartridges, and 44 caps.
They didn't always carry around a full load, mostly they were loaded full when battle was eminent, not around camp, or on a detail such as guard, or prisoner escort.

 

[thomas aagaard]

And that was part of the problem different regiments were taught different manuals. There were a plethera of manuals out there don't forget Caseys, and a couple of others. State units(volunteers) were taught what the state directed. Not neccessarily what the government units were taught.(...)

He clearly say 31st Virginia so Casey is not relevant...
If we actually had the states deciding it would be a lot easier. But usually they didn't.
And even if they did, they didn't spend money on getting the books printed and issued.
(North Carolina is a clear exception. They made Hardee's revised the official drill book and got it printed with a special NC front)
Generelly Gilham was used by Virginia regiment early in the war and Hardee's revised late in the war.

But in the end I think is is more of a question of that this specific reenactment group have used Hardee 1855 for many years... and just decided to stick to it. (It is my impression that Hardee 1855 and Caseys was the only drill books that reenactors could get their hands on for many, many years) Actually asking him on youtube would likely solve it...

Anyway, a bit off topic. Loading a musket require a number of actions that is needed. Exactly how you grip the gun, carry it when marching and so on depend on what drill book is used... or what country.

 

[Drew]

Well, I don't agree. When in combat you fall back on your training...
(that is at least what my friends of mine who have been in combat tell me...

Thomas, I didn't mean to argue and I've not been in combat either. But, if you're attacking, say, the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania, you don't "fall back on your training" (which was minimal), you fight for your life and for that of your companions. Loading these weapons under that kind of stress was very difficult.

Three shots per minute, under intense infantry and artillery fire? I couldn't do it and don't get how they could have.

 

[Poor Private]

Thomas, I didn't mean to argue and I've not been in combat either. But, if you're attacking, say, the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania, you don't "fall back on your training" (which was minimal), you fight for your life and for that of your companions. Loading these weapons under that kind of stress was very difficult.

Three shots per minute, under intense infantry and artillery fire? I couldn't do it and don't get how they could have.

Also many nothern units were sent into the lines with minimal training, this included no small arms training. Several Michigan units were formed in Kalamazoo, and Marshall and sent imediately by train south into Missouri. And got their basic training while fighting. If you have no training you have nothing to fall back on except personal experience.

 

[thomas aagaard]

The exact same can be said of many csa regiments ;-)
But that is the exception. As soon as we get past the early phase of the war and the armies got organized and into camp they drilled daily. And How to load a musket was part of the basic drill and as such got drilled all the time...
But actually firing the musket was not part of the routine and rarely done... And topics like judging distance, how to use the sights and pull the trigger was not thought. So they had limited knowledge about how you actually hit the target.

 

[7thWisconsin]

Before the Chancellorsville campaign, the Federal infantry carried 100 rounds each. 40 in the cartridge box, 60 in the haversack and an additional 40 in the knapsack. The army was trying to reduce baggage and the number of wagons. This turned out to be too many rounds for one man - they were heavy, got spoiled and thrown away, etc. Cartridges were always provided to the men from the arsenals. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that once regular formations got established, no one was rolling their own cartridges for military purposes. I've read of men opening the cartridges to either add or remove the buckshot in "buck and ball" carrtridges, but I don't think that was common.

 

[Eagle eye]

Well, I don't agree. When in combat you fall back on your training...
(that is at least what my friends of mine who have been in combat tell me... and the same is the conclusion of a resent survey looking into how danish soldiers reacted when shot at for the first time)
When we are talking handling weapons and similar one man stuff..

Anyway, he is not trying to show how things was done in combat. He is showing how to load a musket. And he do it rather correctly by the Hardee's 1855 manual of arms.(with the noted exception of not shooting the cameraman) And I just wonder why he don't use the Hardee revised or Gilham.

------------------
That must have been a pretty small survey… where have the Danes been fighting?

 

[thomas aagaard]

We have been doing our part in Afghanistan. Fighting in the Helmann provinces together with the British. Sure 7-800 soldiers is a tiny number to what the US deploys... but it is that many fewer US soldiers who had to go... and less US soldiers who came home in bodybags...

"recent" is actually only partly correct... It was done in 2010. But yes it is based on only a few hundred returns... but all of them from men and women who been in combat.
(one of the first question is about this, and anyone who wrote no, is not used in the statistics about reactions in combat)

But the results is comparable to work done in the US by LTcol Dave Grossman and Dr. Alexis Artwohl.
Artwohls work is about US police officers who have been in firefights and in that 74% have experience going on autopilot.
Artwohl got cases of police officers who do exactly like when training on the firing range...
Including using more time taking the spend casing from their revolver and place it in their pockets... instead of just throwing it on the ground to reload faster...
Because this was how they did it on the firing range... to save the time having to pick the casing up after they finished shooting.

The danish survey show that 91% of the soldiers have experienced going on autopilot.

In combat you don't raise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.