Cap ignition problems

JMArguien

Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2019
Greetings,
I have recently returned to civil war reenacting in the Northwest and I am having significant problems igniting caps with both my armisport 1861 Springfield and my euroarms 1853 Enfield.
The CCI reenactor caps were problematic with igniting my powder (I am using standard FFF) so I switched to schutzen caps which seem to require multiple hammer strikes to ignite. Although, the schutzen seem to successfully ignite the powder when they eventually go off.

My question: as both my rifles were purchased used and I am uncertain of their age; are there any parts that I should replace (main spring/tumbler) or maintenance (greasing of the lock components) that will help with increasing the geometry of the hammer strike or its overall force?

I have several over period reproduction rifles which function with the schutzen caps. A Miroku 1863 Springfield and a couple Zouave rifles, all of which have no problems with the caps.

Thank you for your assistance!
 
Have you tried firing (a cap) at some grass, piece of paper or lid candle so make sure that there is no obstruction?
Apologies for the pedantry, but "safety first" always brings this kind of thing up. In skirmishing practice, the first cap on a theoretically unloaded musket is "fired" from the shoulder pointed at a solid backstop and safe area free of obstructions, people, animals, etc. etc. That way, if the theoretically loaded musket still had a charge in it, it would harmlessly go into the backstop or earth berm, hill-side, what-have-you. The second cap is popped with the muzzle pointing at leaves, grass, twigs, or leaf litter to see if it moves, and if it does, there's no obstruction.

Good luck remedying the issue! Sounds frustrating.
 
Have you tried firing (a cap) at some grass, piece of paper or lid candle so make sure that there is no obstruction?
Yes, the issue is that the schutzen cap will often not ignite. This thread has kinda diverted to the powder not going off... which it obviously won't if the cap doesn't ignite.
 
Yes, the issue is that the schutzen cap will often not ignite. This thread has kinda diverted to the powder not going off... which it obviously won't if the cap doesn't ignite.
(1) Thats because you said that the CCI's would go off but not ignite the powder. Since the CCI's work, lets figure out why the powder won't ignite.
(2) The Schutzen takes several hammer strikes before they Ingnite, and when they do, they won't ignite the powder. Then if we can get No 1 to work, I'd toss No2.

In rereading your thread, you said if you loosen the lock plate a bit, you had more success with the caps going off. Is that because the lock is binding and slowing the striking energy of the hammer, or the hammer is not striking the nipple squarely? And you're having the same problems with both the Armisport and the Euroarms?

SO, trying to systematically break down the problem; A. if both guns are having the same problems, it would be reasonable to assume that the caps are the problem.
B. How old are these caps and how do you store them? Can you borrow a few caps from someone or purchase new caps?
C. You mentioned someone named Tom Watts suggesting loosening the lock plate screws a bit. You tried it and had some possitive results. This would indicate to one of two things. 1. The inlet of your lock plate is not cut deep enough for everything to work properly.
2. the hammer is not hitting the nipple squarely.
Which of these two do you think it is.
And I'm a little confused about what musket we're talking about. You need to make that clear.
Have you ever used a flashlight to look down the bores of these guns?
 
(1) Thats because you said that the CCI's would go off but not ignite the powder. Since the CCI's work, lets figure out why the powder won't ignite.
(2) The Schutzen takes several hammer strikes before they Ingnite, and when they do, they won't ignite the powder. Then if we can get No 1 to work, I'd toss No2.

In rereading your thread, you said if you loosen the lock plate a bit, you had more success with the caps going off. Is that because the lock is binding and slowing the striking energy of the hammer, or the hammer is not striking the nipple squarely? And you're having the same problems with both the Armisport and the Euroarms?

SO, trying to systematically break down the problem; A. if both guns are having the same problems, it would be reasonable to assume that the caps are the problem.
B. How old are these caps and how do you store them? Can you borrow a few caps from someone or purchase new caps?
C. You mentioned someone named Tom Watts suggesting loosening the lock plate screws a bit. You tried it and had some possitive results. This would indicate to one of two things. 1. The inlet of your lock plate is not cut deep enough for everything to work properly.
2. the hammer is not hitting the nipple squarely.
Which of these two do you think it is.
And I'm a little confused about what musket we're talking about. You need to make that clear.
Have you ever used a flashlight to look down the bores of these guns?
1) my belief (based on feedback from others) is that the CCI, while successfully going off, fail to ignite the powder is due to a generally low charge inherent in the cap manufacturing. Also, the method of construction of the CCI caps leads to a blocked cone as the paper disk within the cap becomes lodged inside the cone.
2) the schutzen cap is understood to be more powerful and thus more likely to successfully ignite the powder, but is made of a harder alloy which makes the cap more difficult to ignite. RWS are the best but no longer in production and not a suitable long term solution.
A) agreed, the caps are the issue or at least the ignition of the caps.
B) over the last several months I have purchased 2k schutzen caps for my reenactment company with mixed results based on the rifles used. The Euroarms Enfield worked initially with the first batch of 1k but the average for successful ignition but seemed to be dropping with that batch and into the second batch of 1k. They are stored in a gun safe.
C-1) I agree, that the lock mechanism is likely the issue either due to rubbing or a weakening of the spring components, leading to a loss of kinetic energy in the strike force of the hammer. Additionally, what form of lubricant is best as the lock is dry?
C-2) the nipple has been replaced without improvement and it appears the the hammer is not centered over the cone unless the lock screws are loosened slightly. Making this adjustment has shown some improvement.
The two rifles were purchased used (no idea of age). Euroarms P1853 Enfield and an Armisport 1861 Springfield.
 
1) my belief (based on feedback from others) is that the CCI, while successfully going off, fail to ignite the powder is due to a generally low charge inherent in the cap manufacturing. Also, the method of construction of the CCI caps leads to a blocked cone as the paper disk within the cap becomes lodged inside the cone.
2) the schutzen cap is understood to be more powerful and thus more likely to successfully ignite the powder, but is made of a harder alloy which makes the cap more difficult to ignite. RWS are the best but no longer in production and not a suitable long term solution.
A) agreed, the caps are the issue or at least the ignition of the caps.
B) over the last several months I have purchased 2k schutzen caps for my reenactment company with mixed results based on the rifles used. The Euroarms Enfield worked initially with the first batch of 1k but the average for successful ignition but seemed to be dropping with that batch and into the second batch of 1k. They are stored in a gun safe.
C-1) I agree, that the lock mechanism is likely the issue either due to rubbing or a weakening of the spring components, leading to a loss of kinetic energy in the strike force of the hammer. Additionally, what form of lubricant is best as the lock is dry?
C-2) the nipple has been replaced without improvement and it appears the the hammer is not centered over the cone unless the lock screws are loosened slightly. Making this adjustment has shown some improvement.
The two rifles were purchased used (no idea of age). Euroarms P1853 Enfield and an Armisport 1861 Springfield.
Is this problem with the caps happening just with your muskets, or are others in your reenactment group having problems too?
It seems that with what's been going on in the world in that last two years, a lot of things haven't been working as they should. I can see where it's possible that you got either a bad bunch of caps from the manufacturer or, they were subjected to something in the shipment or storage at the distributor or whatever. I guess the simplest thing would be to purchase some more caps and trying them. It's been 30+ years since I did much shooting with my '53 Euroarms Enfield and I have around 500 RWS that still work after being stored for that long.

With regards to the lock plate, I know some guys really tighten the screws down hard, but I never thought this was a good idea. You tighten them down too hard, and you compress the wood which throws the alignment off between the hammer and the nipple. Since your muskets were "pre-owned" you don't know what the previous owner did. Since you said that one of your guns has an alignment problem between the hammer and nipple, perhaps the previous owner "hogged" down the screws (too much torque on the screws) in an attempt to correct the alignment issue, or because he didn't know any better. I think there are at least two ways to fix this: the simplest way would be to make some thin wooden shims that you would place in the lock mortice at different locations until you find a placement where you get the proper alignment and then glue these shims in place. In the future when you tighten the lock plate down, grab the screwdriver between you thumb and one finger, as you only need maybe 10–15-inch pounds of torque to hold everything in place and that light torque will not compress wood and still hold the lock plate in its mortice. As far as the wooden shims, go buy a popsicle, eat it and then use the stick for your long, slender shims. Inside the lock mortice there is a shelf that the lock sits on, you'll place the shims so the lock plate will rest there. All you need for tools is a very sharp knife (exacto type), and some sandpaper to adjust the thickness of the shims, which may not be more than a centimeter or less to get the results you need. I do not want to remove any wood from the lock mortice if at all possible. This area of the stock is the weakest area: you have the barrel and ramrod channel and the lock and trigger mortises all meeting in this general area. Is there any wonder why so many old guns have a crack in this area?

The other "fix" is a little more dramatic. If the shims don't work because it takes more adjustment to get the correct hammer to nipple fit that can be provided by the shims, (the lock plate is out of the mortice at one end, for example), then I think you'd need a propane torch to heat the hammer to the point when it can be bent to fit. If you elect this route, then I would first purchase a new hammer-just in case. I can't tell you how much to heat the hammer, or how to re-temper it so it will re-harden it. Whenever I work on a gun, I try to follow the "do no harm" mantra in doing my repairs. Heating and bending of metal may violate that principle, so if I were to do it, it's because it's a last resort.

I know Track of the Wolf sell nipples for revolvers that are of different heights, I don't know if they carry nipples for muskets that vary in their heights so you can "custom fit" the nipple height to best suit your hammer/nipple angles, but it might be something you can check out. Back when I was shooting muskets a lot, I always carried an extra nipple and mainspring.

Lubrication of a lock
. I periodically check my locks looking for wear. I normally take my locks apart and oil everything, not so much for lubrication but for rust prevention. I put oil on everything, let it set for a bit to let the oil migrate into the pours of the metal and then lightly wipe it off, as I don't want the oil to migrate into the wood. On the wear points I like to use grease. I think it does a better job of staying in place. I apply the grease to these wear point with a toothpick, as a little bit goes a long way and again, I don't want the grease to migrate into the wood. If there are spots on the back of the lock plate that show where metal is rubbing on metal, (for example the mainspring is rubbing on the lock plate), I would take a bit of metal off the edge of the mainspring with a fine jewelers file or some 400-grit wet/dry sandpaper. If you use sandpaper, use a wood block as backing for the paper. Another place to look for an improper metal-to-metal fit is where the bolster enters the back of the lock plate. You want a good parallel fit in this area.

I will also paint the wood of the lock mortice with acrylic paint, so all the raw wood is covered as to seal the wood against moisture and oil. I normally paint or put a good heavy coat of paste wax on the inside of the barrel channel for the same reason. After doing various types of wood working through the years, I can say with confidence that all wood moves. I don't care if it was kiln-dried or air dried, it will move, warp, crack, etc. As a tree grows, the fibers of the wood are under tension or compression, depending on where your piece of wood was on the tree. As it dries these stresses are relieved as the wood that surrounded your stock was removed. The best way to keep this movement to a minimum or to slow the movement is to wax or seal all of the stock, especially where you have end grain. Think of wood as a bundle of straws, where the moisture enters and leave the stock through these end grain areas, i.e the ends of the straws. Seal these end grains really well and you've controlled the moisture entering and leaving the stock. The movement of moisture will still happen, but by sealing it you have greatly slowed that exchange of moisture. The barrel channel and mortices are areas where you have a lot of end grains. Your musket may have left the factory with the hammer and nipple perfectly aligned, but over time the wood has moved enough so now the fit is no longer correct.

Back in the 80's I did a lot of shooting with the N-SSA, so you had to be an amateur gunsmith to keep your gun in a shootable condition. I mean no disrespect to reenactors, but I found they didn't pay as much attention to their guns as we did, especially when it came to cleaning them.
 
Thank you. I have ordered some but my understanding was that Walther purchased RWS and will no longer be producing the 4wing
Golly! I sure hope that is not true! My understanding was that RWS was part of the big RUAG ammunition conglomerate (that includes Geco, etc.). These corporate sales and mergers and whatnot can get mighty confusing. Estes model rocket builders bought Goex after the ammunition plant shut it down, so who knows? Hopefully they'll still get manufactured. Guess I better bone up on recent developents!
 
Is this problem with the caps happening just with your muskets, or are others in your reenactment group having problems too?
It seems that with what's been going on in the world in that last two years, a lot of things haven't been working as they should. I can see where it's possible that you got either a bad bunch of caps from the manufacturer or, they were subjected to something in the shipment or storage at the distributor or whatever. I guess the simplest thing would be to purchase some more caps and trying them. It's been 30+ years since I did much shooting with my '53 Euroarms Enfield and I have around 500 RWS that still work after being stored for that long.

With regards to the lock plate, I know some guys really tighten the screws down hard, but I never thought this was a good idea. You tighten them down too hard, and you compress the wood which throws the alignment off between the hammer and the nipple. Since your muskets were "pre-owned" you don't know what the previous owner did. Since you said that one of your guns has an alignment problem between the hammer and nipple, perhaps the previous owner "hogged" down the screws (too much torque on the screws) in an attempt to correct the alignment issue, or because he didn't know any better. I think there are at least two ways to fix this: the simplest way would be to make some thin wooden shims that you would place in the lock mortice at different locations until you find a placement where you get the proper alignment and then glue these shims in place. In the future when you tighten the lock plate down, grab the screwdriver between you thumb and one finger, as you only need maybe 10–15-inch pounds of torque to hold everything in place and that light torque will not compress wood and still hold the lock plate in its mortice. As far as the wooden shims, go buy a popsicle, eat it and then use the stick for your long, slender shims. Inside the lock mortice there is a shelf that the lock sits on, you'll place the shims so the lock plate will rest there. All you need for tools is a very sharp knife (exacto type), and some sandpaper to adjust the thickness of the shims, which may not be more than a centimeter or less to get the results you need. I do not want to remove any wood from the lock mortice if at all possible. This area of the stock is the weakest area: you have the barrel and ramrod channel and the lock and trigger mortises all meeting in this general area. Is there any wonder why so many old guns have a crack in this area?

The other "fix" is a little more dramatic. If the shims don't work because it takes more adjustment to get the correct hammer to nipple fit that can be provided by the shims, (the lock plate is out of the mortice at one end, for example), then I think you'd need a propane torch to heat the hammer to the point when it can be bent to fit. If you elect this route, then I would first purchase a new hammer-just in case. I can't tell you how much to heat the hammer, or how to re-temper it so it will re-harden it. Whenever I work on a gun, I try to follow the "do no harm" mantra in doing my repairs. Heating and bending of metal may violate that principle, so if I were to do it, it's because it's a last resort.

I know Track of the Wolf sell nipples for revolvers that are of different heights, I don't know if they carry nipples for muskets that vary in their heights so you can "custom fit" the nipple height to best suit your hammer/nipple angles, but it might be something you can check out. Back when I was shooting muskets a lot, I always carried an extra nipple and mainspring.

Lubrication of a lock. I periodically check my locks looking for wear. I normally take my locks apart and oil everything, not so much for lubrication but for rust prevention. I put oil on everything, let it set for a bit to let the oil migrate into the pours of the metal and then lightly wipe it off, as I don't want the oil to migrate into the wood. On the wear points I like to use grease. I think it does a better job of staying in place. I apply the grease to these wear point with a toothpick, as a little bit goes a long way and again, I don't want the grease to migrate into the wood. If there are spots on the back of the lock plate that show where metal is rubbing on metal, (for example the mainspring is rubbing on the lock plate), I would take a bit of metal off the edge of the mainspring with a fine jewelers file or some 400-grit wet/dry sandpaper. If you use sandpaper, use a wood block as backing for the paper. Another place to look for an improper metal-to-metal fit is where the bolster enters the back of the lock plate. You want a good parallel fit in this area.

I will also paint the wood of the lock mortice with acrylic paint, so all the raw wood is covered as to seal the wood against moisture and oil. I normally paint or put a good heavy coat of paste wax on the inside of the barrel channel for the same reason. After doing various types of wood working through the years, I can say with confidence that all wood moves. I don't care if it was kiln-dried or air dried, it will move, warp, crack, etc. As a tree grows, the fibers of the wood are under tension or compression, depending on where your piece of wood was on the tree. As it dries these stresses are relieved as the wood that surrounded your stock was removed. The best way to keep this movement to a minimum or to slow the movement is to wax or seal all of the stock, especially where you have end grain. Think of wood as a bundle of straws, where the moisture enters and leave the stock through these end grain areas, i.e the ends of the straws. Seal these end grains really well and you've controlled the moisture entering and leaving the stock. The movement of moisture will still happen, but by sealing it you have greatly slowed that exchange of moisture. The barrel channel and mortices are areas where you have a lot of end grains. Your musket may have left the factory with the hammer and nipple perfectly aligned, but over time the wood has moved enough so now the fit is no longer correct.

Back in the 80's I did a lot of shooting with the N-SSA, so you had to be an amateur gunsmith to keep your gun in a shootable condition. I mean no disrespect to reenactors, but I found they didn't pay as much attention to their guns as we did, especially when it came to cleaning them.
Thank you for detailed information. I will be firing both rifles over the weekend and should have a better idea based on the collective feedback.
 

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