Can anyone identify this cannon?

Pat Young

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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I was at the Civil War monument in Oak Hill Cemetery in Nyack, NY and saw this cannon in front of the monument. Anyone know what kind of cannon this is? The statue was dedicated in 1877, so I think it was a Civil War Era piece of artillery.

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I was at the Civil War monument in Oak Hill Cemetery in Nyack, NY and saw this cannon in front of the monument. Anyone know what kind of cannon this is? The statue was dedicated in 1877, so I think it was a Civil War Era piece of artillery.

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Looks like a 3" ordnance rifled cannon.
 
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Here is a much more dignified image of a 3" rifle doing its thing over my wife's left shoulder.


Your piece is a 3" ordinance rifle, also called a Rodman. There may be markings around the muzzle. It fired a 10 pound bolt of several designs. The table of fire was pasted on the inside of the lid of each ammunition box. "One pound of Dupont's number 10 powder" sent the bolt down range with great accuracy. It both out ranged & was far more accurate than the 1841 model six pound smoothbore pictured above.

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Huh, I didn't know the 3" Ordnance rifle was also called a Rodman - I'd always thought that the term was reserved for the "Rodman guns" designed by Thomas Rodman, which were predominantly large coast-defence smoothbore columbiads; the 3" Ordnance rifle was designed by Griffen and modified by Reeves.

Is there a place where the 3" Ordnance is referred to as a Rodman in period documents?
 
Huh, I didn't know the 3" Ordnance rifle was also called a Rodman - I'd always thought that the term was reserved for the "Rodman guns" designed by Thomas Rodman, which were predominantly large coast-defence smoothbore columbiads; the 3" Ordnance rifle was designed by Griffen and modified by Reeves.

Is there a place where the 3" Ordnance is referred to as a Rodman in period documents?
Its not a Rodman just over look it as you have to consider the source.
 
It seems politer to ask for proof than dismiss as false, so I thought I'd give that a try.
The Rodman were only built in 8-inch, 10-inch, 13-inch, 15-inch, and 20-inch.
 
The Rodman were only built in 8-inch, 10-inch, 13-inch, 15-inch, and 20-inch.
That's my understanding too, but I wanted to see if @Rhea Cole has a basis for what they say. It could well be that it was a nickname used at the time even if incorrectly so, like how a lot of the "Enfields" purchased by the Union were in fact not made by RSAF Enfield or to any Enfield pattern. (The Lorenz rifle was also known as the "Austrian Enfield" at the time despite being a different pattern and calibre to any true Enfield.)
 
That's my understanding too, but I wanted to see if @Rhea Cole has a basis for what they say. It could well be that it was a nickname used at the time even if incorrectly so, like how a lot of the "Enfields" purchased by the Union were in fact not made by RSAF Enfield or to any Enfield pattern. (The Lorenz rifle was also known as the "Austrian Enfield" at the time despite being a different pattern and calibre to any true Enfield.)
But then again - as we have argued over and over again - few of the 'Enfields' were made in Enfield, and those that were were older Type1s and Type2s sold out of service. They were made by civilian gunmakers and many of the parts were not interchangable. Many were not as .. robust as the military ones, nor as accurate. These were the ones that the British volunteer forces equipped themselves with, as the British government would not, could not, supply the weapons or ammunition. This started in 1860 and so the gunmakers were tooled up enough to supply the two sides in the Civil War. (The government only supplied ammunition - eventually.)
 
But then again - as we have argued over and over again - few of the 'Enfields' were made in Enfield, and those that were were older Type1s and Type2s sold out of service. They were made by civilian gunmakers and many of the parts were not interchangable. Many were not as .. robust as the military ones, nor as accurate. These were the ones that the British volunteer forces equipped themselves with, as the British government would not, could not, supply the weapons or ammunition. This started in 1860 and so the gunmakers were tooled up enough to supply the two sides in the Civil War. (The government only supplied ammunition - eventually.)
I would say that if you have a weapon made by RSAF Enfield itself, it's definitely an Enfield, and if it's made to a British army Pattern (e.g. the Pattern 1853 Enfield is a weapon built on the 1853 Enfield pattern) then it's also an Enfield. It's been procured to the Enfield pattern.

There's a grey area for knock-offs based on the Enfield but not built strictly to the pattern.


The Lorenz is not an Enfield by any measure, as it's not built to the same pattern or even in the same calibre; "Enfield" used as a description for it can only be a nickname. That's about the most I could see a 3" rifle being a "Rodman" as.



As for the Volunteers, I call upon Hansard:


It has been stated by persons of great authority, both in this House and in the other House of Parliament, that the provision for our armaments, both of large and small guns, is this year in excess, and that upon this head of expense a considerable saving might have been made. I am not at all prepared to dispute that assertion with regard to future years, or to deny that it may be possible considerably to reduce the rate at which we are manufacturing iron ordnance and small-arms. I do not, however, perceive that any excessive provision has been made for the present year. Since the Enfield rifles were first introduced, the total number received in store from 1853 to March 31st, 1862, is 1,111,374 rifles of different sorts, of which 391,371 are now in store at home and abroad, actually available for issue. Of these 305,953 are at home, and 85,418 are abroad; and it is estimated that there will be received during the remainder of the current year 163,907 more rifles. We have had to find our Militia, our Volunteers, and our Navy with rifles, as well as the Army. It is not calculated that an Enfield rifle will last more than about eight years. The number in possession of all our forces, exclusive of India, is 508,953, and 54,729 are necessary to complete the number required, making a total of 563,682. The annual consumption is calculated at about 60,000. The Duke of Wellington in 1826 fixed the store proportion of small-arms at about 600,000. At that time, however, the army was not so large as at present, and, moreover, there were no Volunteers, who are now furnished with Enfield rifles. Taking the number in store at 391,371, and calculating that there are 163,907 to be delivered during the year, there would, deducting 60,000 for wear and tear, be a total of 495,278 in store, whereas the Duke of Wellington assumed in 1826 that 600,000 was the proper quantity of small-arms to be kept in store. On that assumption the number is certainly not excessive.

(HC Deb 23 June 1862 vol 167 cc870-964)

This covers only the weapons that actually passed through government hands.
 
Huh, I didn't know the 3" Ordnance rifle was also called a Rodman - I'd always thought that the term was reserved for the "Rodman guns" designed by Thomas Rodman, which were predominantly large coast-defence smoothbore columbiads; the 3" Ordnance rifle was designed by Griffen and modified by Reeves.

Is there a place where the 3" Ordnance is referred to as a Rodman in period documents?
You will find very occasional references in journals, correspondence, etc to these as "Rodmans". I'd have to check but IIRC even such as McClellan casually referred to the 3" as "Rodmans". I suspect that may have come about because Rodman served on a board that determined a general shape for guns which the Ordnance Rifle fit within. "Rodman" technically is a process that was not used for the Ordnance Rifle but the term was properly applied to the (larger) guns made using that process.
 
A small point to make is that Enfield is an area of London where arms manufacturers were located and not a factory or person.
 
A small point to make is that Enfield is an area of London where arms manufacturers were located and not a factory or person.
Enfield Lock was the location of the Royal Small Arms Factory where these rifles were, eventually, made. It started in 1814 making mainly swords and muskets, but in 1856, US-type mass production was set up and by 1860 an average of 1,744 rifles were produced per week. Most, if not all, of the issue Type 3s were manufactured there. The early Enfield P53s (Type1 and 2) were indeed made by contractors but all were inspected there and given government inspector stamps. These were classed as 'government property' and none were exported to the USA for political reasons - hence the supply from civilian sources - and the reason why they have civilian proof stamps.
 
You will find very occasional references in journals, correspondence, etc to these as "Rodmans". I'd have to check but IIRC even such as McClellan casually referred to the 3" as "Rodmans". I suspect that may have come about because Rodman served on a board that determined a general shape for guns which the Ordnance Rifle fit within. "Rodman" technically is a process that was not used for the Ordnance Rifle but the term was properly applied to the (larger) guns made using that process.
I see a couple of cases of "4 1/2 inch Rodman guns" under friendly command in the Peninsular campaign ORs, both from the 1st CT Heavy Artillery (one each from Tyler and Kellogg, Colonel and Major respectively). No mention of such in the Maryland Campaign section of the ORs or in any of the others in McClellan's tenure (the quickest subset to check), or in the Northern Virginia section corresponding to the Peninsular Campaign.

Two mentions of Rodman guns (of no specified calibre) in the Gettysburg campaign:

20th NYSM once mentions enemy Rodman guns firing on them, which doesn't really tell us anything given the difficulties of determining what they mean.
2nd NH mentions Rodman guns replacing the ones they were previously supporting around 5PM on July 2nd. Thing is, that's all 3rd Corps stuff (it's in the peach orchard) and 3rd Corps had no 3" Ordnance rifles (they only had Napoleons and Parrotts)... though the report indicates they were getting support from the artillery reserve, and the battery in question (the one described as Rodmans) later spiked some of their pieces. This could be Ricketts' battery (which was Ordnance pieces) as they did spike their pieces, but it's a thin reed in isolation and the same place mentioning Ricketts spiking his guns mentions them as being in the "right center" (not what I'd have called the Peach Orchard part of the position).
 
You will find very occasional references in journals, correspondence, etc to these as "Rodmans". I'd have to check but IIRC even such as McClellan casually referred to the 3" as "Rodmans". I suspect that may have come about because Rodman served on a board that determined a general shape for guns which the Ordnance Rifle fit within. "Rodman" technically is a process that was not used for the Ordnance Rifle but the term was properly applied to the (larger) guns made using that process.
I included the Rodman reference because it is used very often in original sources. Thanks, I never really knew why that name was associated with the 3" rifles. I assume it is in keeping with the custom of calling artillery after individuals ( Wierd, Ames, Napoleon, Parrott, Columbiad, etc.) rather than by a technical title.

In his excellent memoir the bugler for Eli Lilly's Battery always referred to their rifles as Rodmans. I assume that was customary in the battery.
 
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