Buck&ball question

[FZ11]

I have shot plenty of Round Ball, and Buck-n-Ball out of my repro 1842. Shooting at 50 yards at a man sized target, I could stay on that target for a good while shooting a .660" 420 grain round ball with 110 grains of FFg powder. Now, when loaded with that same .66" round ball with 3 .31 cal buckshot in front of it, well, there were times only one buckshot would hit, or maybe two of them, or at times only the .66" round ball would hit the target. One time, NONE of the 4 balls even hit the target!
All these loads were made up and loaded as per the originals, (See picture posted) and they are fun to shoot!

Kevin Dally

View attachment 120749

Agree. B&B is a very inaccurate load. Just gimmee a rifled musket!

 

[thomas aagaard]

Dont matter.
First of all the average soldier had no idea about how to take advantage of the rifle musket.
And when you are firing into a closed order formation as very close range hitting with a smoothbore is not a problem... so you want as much lead down range as possible.

 

[Cumpston1862]

At a close range firing a muzzle loading weapon you would want to put much lead forward as quickly as possible. That is indisputable in its logic. The buck and ball round was known for its devastating effect on large massed troop formations at close range. We know this now and there are numerous accounts to substantiate that they knew this than. The reality is you can't carry two muskets a long distance into a fight. You have one or the other. I have read instances of soldiers using or improvising buck and ball loads in their rifled muskets at close range but again carrying two types of ammunition isn't practical either but some apparently did.

The attached link gives some good information on the effectiveness and pros/cons of the rifled musket vs the smooth bore musket.

https://www.iusb.edu/ugr-journal/static/2000/pdf/stanage.pdf

 

[Bruce Vail]

For the rank-and-file soldier, wouldn't the rifled gun be preferable because it increases his chances of killing the enemy before the enemy got too close?

My reading on the 3rd North Carolina State Troops revealed a little bit on this subject. One of the colonels insisted that some of the men keep their muskets despite the fact the many of the Confederates were replacing their smooth-bore guns with captured rifles at Seven Days. The colonel claimed he was proved correct by the damage his unit was able to do the Yankees at close range at Sharpsburg.

 

[thomas aagaard]

but again carrying two types of ammunition isn't practical either but some apparently did.

In the danish army in the 1850ties soldiers armed with smoothbores* carried 30 rounds.(in their cartrigeboxes, and more in their backpack)
Some was just one round ball. and others where buckshot. So for firing at longer range (where the buckshots loose their punch) only the one ball was used.
The exact number of each I don't remember (and don't have access to the relevant regulation)


* the army used a 80/20 mix in each 200man company with the 20% best marksmen using rifled muskets, the rest smoothbores. After 1860 it changed to all rifled muskets or rifle muskets depending on battalion.

 

[tbuckley]

Thanks for that, Ryan; hadn't heard of that.

Frankly, though, if it had been me I think I'd have opted to just load and fire more rounds than spend the time sorting them out. And I'd have got one big shot in every bang to boot ! Shame to throw away good lead. Just a thought.

I mat be wrong but, I believe that the 12th New Jersey gathered dropped muskets and lo

I'm saying I'd have just loaded faster using the buck and ball packaged round rather than having to dig through a bunch of rounds and throw the larger balls away. So, I'd have got one good-sized solid shot and three bucks for every bang and would have saved the digging time and just reloaded. Good thing neither of us had to make that decision !

I may be wrong but, I believe that the 12th New Jersey gathered abandoned muskets and loaded them with buckshot to use when the Confederates got close enough. I don't think that they bothered to sort out the buckshot while the Confederates were advancing.

 

[tbuckley]

I mat be wrong but, I believe that the 12th New Jersey gathered dropped muskets and lo


I may be wrong but, I believe that the 12th New Jersey gathered abandoned muskets and loaded them with buckshot to use when the Confederates got close enough. I don't think that they bothered to sort out the buckshot while the Confederates were advancing.

Don't know what I did but I started to reply to one post and it disappeared and replied to another and both showed up. I need to get the grandkids to help me with these darn computers. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[FZ11]

For the rank-and-file soldier, wouldn't the rifled gun be preferable because it increases his chances of killing the enemy before the enemy got too close?

My reading on the 3rd North Carolina State Troops revealed a little bit on this subject. One of the colonels insisted that some of the men keep their muskets despite the fact the many of the Confederates were replacing their smooth-bore guns with captured rifles at Seven Days. The colonel claimed he was proved correct by the damage his unit was able to do the Yankees at close range at Sharpsburg.

Absolutely right! Just gimmee a rifled musket and those Buck and Ball boys won't get close enough to shoot me!

 

[zburkett]

With a line of running men coming at you I would think you would want to put as many projectiles down range as possible. Once they reach your line the rifle becomes either a club or a spear anyway. It was just a variation of the modern "spray and pray".

 

[Youngblood]

I would think that because of the way the buck n ball cartridge was tied up with the bucks on top and the string separating it from the ball, you could tear open only the top portion and place the remaing ball and powder back in your box intact without actually wasting it.
By grabbing on the buck off it, you now have some round ball only cartridges.

Dont know if they did but its an idea.

 

[Tin cup]

I would think that because of the way the buck n ball cartridge was tied up with the bucks on top and the string separating it from the ball, you could tear open only the top portion and place the remaing ball and powder back in your box intact without actually wasting it.
By grabbing on the buck off it, you now have some round ball only cartridges.

Dont know if they did but its an idea.

That wouldn't work...the cartridge is tied with one string, wrapped around the top 3 buck shot, then continues down to tie off under the .65 cal ball. You couldn't "tear off" the top, there would be no way to hold the lower ball in place, it would fall out, the powder would be exposed.

Kevin Dally

 

[Youngblood]

I will take your word for it.
Well there goes that theory huh.

 

[zburkett]

I don't think changing the cartridge would be something you would do in the heat of battle. I can imagine someone might get a couple of "shot" rounds ready the night before a battle to use if a charge got close. We know they would gather up extra rifles and have them loaded and ready and at Fredericksburg the Confederates had production lines ready. A man would shoot and pass his rifle back and be handed a loaded one. Standing behind him were three men loading so there was always a loaded rifle ready for him. I assume the best shots were in front.

 

[AUG]

Absolutely right! Just gimmee a rifled musket and those Buck and Ball boys won't get close enough to shoot me!

When the black powder smoke is so thick you can barely see 20 or 30 feet ahead and the enemy is not more than 100 yards away the rifled musket won't make that big of a difference.... probably would rather have buck and ball in that case. But if I'm on the skirmish line or a sharpshooter then give me a rifle!

and at Fredericksburg the Confederates had production lines ready. A man would shoot and pass his rifle back and be handed a loaded one. Standing behind him were three men loading so there was always a loaded rifle ready for him. I assume the best shots were in front.

That was done at a few other places as well, such as at Franklin after Opdycke made his counter attack and some of the routed Federals from Wagner's advanced line came back to hold the main line. They were three of four lines deep and loading and passing up muskets.

Confederate troops holding the Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania and Fort Gregg at Petersburg gathered extra rifles and had guys in the rear loading and passing them up to those doing the shooting. The troops holding Fort Gregg actually learned to do that from their experience at Spotsylvania.

 

[FZ11]

When the black powder smoke is so thick you can barely see 20 or 30 feet ahead and the enemy is not more than 100 yards away the rifled musket won't make that big of a difference.... probably would rather have buck and ball in that case. But if I'm on the skirmish line or a sharpshooter then give me a rifle!


That was done at a few other places as well, such as at Franklin after Opdycke made his counter attack and some of the routed Federals from Wagner's advanced line came back to hold the main line. They were three of four lines deep and loading and passing up muskets.

Confederate troops holding the Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania and Fort Gregg at Petersburg gathered extra rifles and had guys in the rear loading and passing them up to those doing the shooting. The troops holding Fort Gregg actually learned to do that from their experience at Spotsylvania.

Prefer the rifled musket. Better to fire at 250 yards than at 50 yards.

 

[thomas aagaard]

Prefer the rifled musket. Better to fire at 250 yards than at 50 yards.

not when your men are missing 90+% of the time when firing at 250 yards...
Then you will just down a handfull of men... not something that will stop the enemy.
Then you fire again at 150 yards and drop a good number more... but they re still not stopping.
Then they get to 75 yards, and give you a volley of buckshots with a higher hitrate than your volleys and 4 timers the lead...
Sure more lead will be exchanged... but no way you will win it now... the is enemy simply able to put more lead down rang than you are... even if your men hit with a higher % of each piece of lead, they will fire 4 times pr. your one.

In the hands of well trained marksmen, the rifle musket was a great weapon... but well trained marksmen was very far from the norm... For the obvious reason that there was no organized system for training the soldiers to be marksmen that was used to any large extent across the two sides.

 

[Legion Para]

During the Antietam campaign, there is both ordnance records and personal accounts of the three New York Regiments of the Irish Brigade carrying predominately 1842 smoothbores. As far as cartridges, the accounts point to Buck and Ball being preferred and used predominately.

 

[zburkett]

I recently got an 1816 musket at auction and have been studying its history. It was in service even after the war (over 1/2 century use) for that very reason. In some cases with a certain level of trained troops the smooth bore was preferred. If you have well trained snipers you strive for Whitworth rifles and they try 1,000 yard shots. At close range and thick smoke, pump out as much lead as you can.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Burkett - I am very interested in the post-war use of a M-1816 musket. Can you provide the information you have regarding such use? Thank you.
J.

 

[zburkett]

Jobe, I picked it up off the internet and failed to write down the source. As I understand it, by the end of the war the 1816s (converted to cap) were in the hands of guards, Invalid Corp., etc. Shortly after the war they were surplused out but would go to home militia and groups going west. In one book I read recently they mentioned soldiers in the west using smooth bore muskets as shot guns for table use. I also remember reading somewhere that they had been issued to Indian Police.