Discussion Border Troops

Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

MikeyB

Corporal
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
307
quick question as i'm sure its been discussed repeatedly over the years.
Are there any generally accepted stats which show the split of regular USA/CSA troops coming from the border states, by state? Was curious if regarding KY, MO and MD, if it was close, or if the state's official Union status was a major factor in favor of the Union.

Mike
 

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
2,307
Location
Boonville, MO
I can't speak about KY or MD, but for MO the figures for the CSA are muddied. It's generally accepted that there was around 110,000 men who fought for the Union, as MO units, (per Dyers Compendium), but realize that a small minority of those MO units were actually made up from men not of MO.
On the CSA side, the estimates, (as if there were any records kept, they have been lost), generally run around 30,000-40,000 of men in uniform, but I have seen estimates that the number could have been as high as 90,000. To reach that higher estimate, I'm assuming that someone has somehow come up with estimate of all the men who fought against the Union, which I assume has to include all of the guerrillas, and if so, how does someone come up with an estimate for the number of guerrillas is anyone guess.

I have seen the statement made that, on a per capita basis, MO had more men involved in the conflict, than any other state.
 
Last edited:

MikeyB

Corporal
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
307
I can't speak about KY or MD, but for MO the figures for the CSA are muddied. It's generally accepted that there was around 110,000 men who fought for the Union, as MO units, (per Dyers Compendium), but realize that a small minority of those MO units were actually made up from men not of MO.
On the CSA side, the estimates, (as if there were any records kept, they have been lost), generally run around 30,000-40,000 of men in uniform, but I have seen estimates that the number could have been as high as 90,000. To reach that higher estimate, I'm assuming that someone has somehow come up with estimate of all the men who fought against the Union, which I assume has to include all of the guerrillas, and if so, how does someone come up with an estimate for the number of guerrillas is anyone guess.

I have seen the statement made that, on a per capita basis, MO had more men involved in the conflict, than any other state.
Appreciate the interesting data and comments, thank you.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
quick question as i'm sure its been discussed repeatedly over the years.
Are there any generally accepted stats which show the split of regular USA/CSA troops coming from the border states, by state? Was curious if regarding KY, MO and MD, if it was close, or if the state's official Union status was a major factor in favor of the Union.

Mike
Per Historian Steve Freeling Kentucky provided 25k full time soldiers to the Confederacy vs 50k to the Union. This figure excludes Confederate guerrillas and Unionist home guards.
Per the Missouri Historical Society 30k Confederate vs 110 Union again excluding Confederate guerrillas and Unionist home guards.
Keep in mind all states had out of state volunteers in their regiments.
The generally accepted figure for West Virginia is 20k Confederate vs 20k Union again excluding Confederate guerrillas and Unionist home guards.
I can not find good estimates on Maryland. Not saying they don't exist.
Leftyhunter
 
Last edited:

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
quick question as i'm sure its been discussed repeatedly over the years.
Are there any generally accepted stats which show the split of regular USA/CSA troops coming from the border states, by state? Was curious if regarding KY, MO and MD, if it was close, or if the state's official Union status was a major factor in favor of the Union.

Mike
If you consider Tennessee a border state then per Robert Current it's something like 120k Confederate vs 42k Union excluding Confederate and Unionist guerrillas also Confederate and Unionist home guards.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
quick question as i'm sure its been discussed repeatedly over the years.
Are there any generally accepted stats which show the split of regular USA/CSA troops coming from the border states, by state? Was curious if regarding KY, MO and MD, if it was close, or if the state's official Union status was a major factor in favor of the Union.

Mike
If you include Missouri State Guard forces then the Confederate estimates of troops from Missouri does increase. However many of the MSG returned to civilian life during the ACW and remained more or less neutral.
Leftyhunter
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
2,307
Location
Boonville, MO
If you include Missouri State Guard forces then the Confederate estimates of troops from Missouri does increase. However many of the MSG returned to civilian life during the ACW and remained more or less neutral.
Leftyhunter
I have to disagree with part of your statement: When the MSG disbanded in the spring of '62, SOME of them returned to civilian life. But because they had shown their disloyalty to the Union through their joining the MSG, those that sought to stay out of the war were hounded by unionist to the point where they joined guerilla units. Frank James and John McCorkle being but two examples.

And as you have said on more than one occasion, there's no being neutral in a civil war.
 
Last edited:

Joshism

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,213
Location
Jupiter, FL
If you consider Tennessee a border state then per Robert Current it's something like 120k Confederate vs 42k Union excluding Confederate and Unionist guerrillas also Confederate and Unionist home guards
I'm surprised to see TN provided so many Union regular troops. Wikipedia indicates they had more Cavalry and Mounted Infantry (combined) than regular Infantry which is interesting.
 

archieclement

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
4,640
Location
mo
If you include Missouri State Guard forces then the Confederate estimates of troops from Missouri does increase. However many of the MSG returned to civilian life during the ACW and remained more or less neutral.
Leftyhunter
Part of the problem of Missouri numbers is many are counted more then once and some counted on both sides :bounce:

But the MSG was around 40K by itself.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
Part of the problem of Missouri numbers is many are counted more then once and some counted on both sides :bounce:

But the MSG was around 40K by itself.
Valid point. ( Also @MikeyB ) A researcher could get a rough estimate of how many troops served from the border states by looking at pension and widows pensions.
Border states post ACW did provide modest pensions for Confederate veterans who were residents of their state during the ACW.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
I'm surprised to see TN provided so many Union regular troops. Wikipedia indicates they had more Cavalry and Mounted Infantry (combined) than regular Infantry which is interesting.
Sounds right. Many of the Unionist regiments from Tennessee were assigned to counterinsurgency duties plus guarding against Confederate Calvary so it's better to have a horse then not.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
I have to disagree with part of your statement: When the MSG disbanded in the spring of '62, SOME of them returned to civilian life. But because they had shown their disloyalty to the Union through their joining the MSG, those that sought to stay out of the war were hounded by unionist to the point where they joined guerilla units. Frank James and John McCorkle being but two examples.

And as you have said on more than one occasion, there's no being neutral in a civil war.
True that's why I said some members of the MSG. We can't know how many ex MSG became Confederate guerrillas although certainly some did Frank James being the most famous example. We can't know how many moved out of state although we know many Missourians emigrated to Montana in 1864.
Valid point that especially in an insurgent war neutrality is difficult at best. It's basically fight or flight and quite a bit if both during the ACW in Missouri.
Leftyhunter
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

archieclement

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
4,640
Location
mo
Valid point. ( Also @MikeyB ) A researcher could get a rough estimate of how many troops served from the border states by looking at pension and widows pensions.
Border states post ACW did provide modest pensions for Confederate veterans who were residents of their state during the ACW.
Leftyhunter
Most the totals seem to have been arrived at by simply adding the various types of troops up, except the MSG which skews the number in favor of the Union, by not counting them twice....though they count EMM and PEMM and MSM......To be in the PEMM one had been in the EMM........ The EMM number would even include former MSG and even paroled CSA who were required to enroll.

So I would think its impossible to not view the 110,000 Union number as inflated, even had EMM turning around and joining the CSA in 64 :bounce:
 
Last edited:

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
2,307
Location
Boonville, MO
True that's why I said some members of the MSG. We can't know how many ex MSG became Confederate guerrillas although certainly some did Frank James being the most famous example. We can't know how many moved out of state although we know many Missourians emigrated to Montana in 1864.
Valid point that especially in an insurgent war neutrality is difficult at best. It's basically fight or flight and quite a bit if both during the ACW in Missouri.
Leftyhunter
No, you said "many", that's why in my response to you I said "some."
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
Most the totals seem to have been arrived at by simply adding the various types of troops up, except the MSG which skews the number in favor of the Union, by not counting them twice....though they count EMM and PEMM and MSM......To be in the PEMM one had been in the EMM........ The EMM number would even include former MSG and even paroled CSA who were required to enroll.

So I would think its impossible to not view the 110,000 Union number as inflated
It's my understanding that the Missouri Historical Society only counted full time regular troops not the various Union militia's. Perhaps they did include Militia.
Leftyhunter
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,890
Location
los angeles ca
No, you said "many", that's why in my response to you I said "some."
If say 20 k ( out of an estimated 40k)MSG joined the regular Confederate Army and 20k joined the guerrillas then it would of required approximately 200k full time Unionist troops to counter them.
It seems a rather safe be a very significant portion of the MSG did not fight for the Confederacy. Certainly many did I.e. the Cockerel Brigade and some as guerrillas.
A 20 k even 10k guerrilla force would be very difficult to counter.
Leftyhunter
 

archieclement

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
4,640
Location
mo
If say 20 k ( out of an estimated 40k)MSG joined the regular Confederate Army and 20k joined the guerrillas then it would of required approximately 200k full time Unionist troops to counter them.
It seems a rather safe be a very significant portion of the MSG did not fight for the Confederacy. Certainly many did I.e. the Cockerel Brigade and some as guerrillas.
A 20 k even 10k guerrilla force would be very difficult to counter.
Leftyhunter
The MSM and the PEMM both got federal pensions for their service, The MSM was a federally funded force, and even some of the EMM got Federal pensions

All 3 spent time in the field against both regular and irregular CSA forces, all 3 are included in lists of Missouri Union Units

And another example of Federal soldiers being counted twice is the Home Guard Lyon federalized.....they were only 3 month forces, so most would have then reenlisted into other units...being counted twice
 
Last edited:
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

CCMDCSA

Sergeant
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
538
Location
Silver run Md carroll county
If you consider Tennessee a border state then per Robert Current it's something like 120k Confederate vs 42k Union excluding Confederate and Unionist guerrillas also Confederate and Unionist home guards.
Leftyhunter
I wouldn't consider Tennessee a border state but east Tennessee as it's own entity for sure could be considered a border area if not a union stronghold I wish there were more solid numbers for the divided parts of appalchia as far as partisan activity goes
 

archieclement

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
4,640
Location
mo
The common stat for here in Maryland is 25-30k for the south and 50-60k for the union the later including around 8 k serving in USCT regiments a factor that I would think is not unique to maryland and was common to other border states was crossing state lines to enlist which has muddied the numbers
Thats a big ? here as well, its known there was an exodus out of the state during the war, probably more southern leaning because of the war, house burnings and deportations, However certainly some Unionist moved as well, and both probally accounted for some enlistments in other states.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!
Top