Black powder pistol

[Virginia Dave]

I am thinking of buying a 1851 Navy Black Powder Revolver .44 Caliber 7.375" Blued Octagonal Barrel Steel Color-Case Hardened Frame, Brass Guard, and Walnut Grip is this appropriate for reenactment?.

 

[Patrick H]

I am so far from being a revolver expert that I am reluctant to even chime in, but I'll tell you this: I don't think the phrase "1851 Navy" and the caliber .44 go together. I think the .44 was the army model. The Navy model was lighter--I believe about .36 caliber. Ergo, I think the reproduction you are considering has some problems. Maybe nothing intentional on the part of the maker. Just make sure it accurately represents SOMETHING before you buy it. If it accurately represents something (like the Colt army model), then you can fit it into an impression. That's my two cents' worth.

 

[Story]

Your reenacting unit should provide guidelines for acceptable weapons, accouterments, uniform and gear.

 

[johan_steele]

The 1851 Navy was in .36. The Army was in .44. If you're doing re-enacting or Living History speak with your unit before you start making purchases. If you're buying to fill that internal need for fun, go ahead and jump right in and regret later.

 

[Package4]

I am thinking of buying a 1851 Navy Black Powder Revolver .44 Caliber 7.375" Blued Octagonal Barrel Steel Color-Case Hardened Frame, Brass Guard, and Walnut Grip is this appropriate for reenactment?.

Unless you are an officer or in a cav unit no, check with your group for guidelines as @Story has recommended.

 

[sourdough]

I don't think the phrase "1851 Navy" and the caliber .44 go together. I think the .44 was the army model. The Navy model was lighter--I believe about .36 caliber. Ergo, I think the reproduction you are considering has some problems.

Your reenacting unit should provide guidelines for acceptable weapons, accouterments, uniform and gear.

I am not a re-enactor, so just my historical perpective $.02 worth.

If you want a .44 you have basically three choices: the Colt 1860 Army steel frame, the Remington New Model Army steel frame, and the Colt Dragoon 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and Whitneyville models.

The Colt 1851 Navy (and the Confederate copies of it) were all .36 .

My Pietta .36 pistols:

1851 Navy 2nd Model (parts gun)

1851 Navy 3rd/4th Model

If you are a Confederate:

Leech & Rigdon (parts gun)

Griswold & Gunnison

Other Navy copy Confederate pistols are the Schneider & Glassick, Rigdon & Ansley, Augusta Machine Works, Columbus Firearms Manufacturing Co., Tucker & Sherrard, and the Dance & Brothers, none of which are produced by Italian makers (except the Pietta Dance .44 which uses a Navy frame and a larger .44 cylinder and is not historically correct as made).

Uberti makes a Leech & Rigdon but it has the engraved/roll-marked cylinder of a Navy (not historical).

Pietta and Uberti both make an 1861 Navy .36 with the blued steel trigger guard and backstrap (historical).

If you shoot a brass frame pistol, light loads are prudent as the brass will stretch over time.

If you wish to buy a used pistol, be aware that many sellers have very little idea what they have. A good source:

https://www.gunbroker.com/Black-Powder-Pistols-Muzzleloader-Pistols/search

Regards,

Jim

 

[captaindrew]

I believe you are looking at the Colts offered in Cabela's and Outdoor World. It's a 44 they call a Navy which really isn't correct, Authentically speaking a Navy model is 36 and an Army model is 44. I have one. I picked up a used one cheep at a gun show. It's a nice gun and good shooter I plink live rounds with but don't take it to any reenactments. As others have already said at most events only commissioned officers and mounted cavalry are allowed to carry sidearms.

 

[JOHN42768]

Not much to add, as most has been covered. First you need to know what the group would want you to be armed with. If it is going to be a revolver then ask again as to the different manufacturers , cost wise, quality wise. authenticity wise and and user friendly. Compare before parting with your bucks. Enjoy

 

[Pollaco]

How did the myth of "36-Navy 44-Army" get started.I 've heard from other sources that the caliber had nothing to do with the military branchs. The 1851 Colt cylinder had a naval scene engraved on it, hence ...Navy. Did the Navy really have their caliber and the Army theirs? It sounds dumb enough to be true but please someone set me straight.

 

[nc native]

How did the myth of "36-Navy 44-Army" get started.I 've heard from other sources that the caliber had nothing to do with the military branchs. The 1851 Colt cylinder had a naval scene engraved on it, hence ...Navy. Did the Navy really have their caliber and the Army theirs? It sounds dumb enough to be true but please someone set me straight.

If I am not mistaken, the Army went with the higher caliber pistol because the .44 has more knockdown power for both men and horses which one might encounter in a land battle while at sea a .36 would suffice as a man stopper. The .44 1848 Colt Dragoon was known as a horse pistol because of it's large frame that allowed it to take the stress of more powerful black powder loads that would be needed for
mounted infantry and cavalry to stop charging horses.

 

[sourdough]

The 1851/1861 and 1860 pistols were known as belt pistols as they were light enough to be easily carried there, in the waist band or in a belt holster. The Dragoons were known as horse pistols because they were much heavier and were usually carried by mounted cavalry in holsters hanging from the saddle pommel. You can probably guess why the 1848/1849 .31 pistols were known as pocket pistols...

 

[zburkett]

In todays advertising the 1851 is usually called a Colt's Navy and an 1860 is called an Army. In the writings of the time they would refer to "Navy Caliber" for the .36 and "Army Caliber" for the .44 whatever model it was. What was carried had more to do with what was available, both model and caliber. As for reenacting it depends on what your persona is. If you are regular infantry you would not carry a pistol. If you are a Missouri Guerilla you need several.

 

[Pollaco]

If you were talking to a reenactor several feet apart and he was in uniform and had the butt of his revolver forward in a flap holster could you really tell if the caliber was wrong? I dont think I could.

 

[Package4]

If you were talking to a reenactor several feet apart and he was in uniform and had the butt of his revolver forward in a flap holster could you really tell if the caliber was wrong? I dont think I could.

He is talking about buying a Colt and I believe if he were to do so he might as well get the right piece. Many times at re-enactments and living histories you are asked if "I can see your musket, pistol, sword etc?"; you then explain the nomenclature and specifics. Doing things the right way, is just as easy and most of the time, no more expensive.

 

[zburkett]

Possibly I should have mentioned that pocket pistols were sometimes carried by individual soldiers, either small single shots or even small Colt's.

 

[sourdough]

If you were talking to a reenactor several feet apart and he was in uniform and had the butt of his revolver forward in a flap holster could you really tell if the caliber was wrong? I don't think I could.

I think I see where you are going with this so I won't assume.

If the holster was properly made for the pistol, the flap would cover the entire butt of the pistol from the weather. Just speaking of historically correct replica Colts, if one could see the just the very bottom of the butt while in the holster one could discern a few things.

If the bottom of the backstrap is blued steel, it would be an 1860 Army .44 or an 1861 Navy .36 . If one could see the base/bottom of the trigger guard, the 1861 would be blued steel and the 1860 would be brass.

If the same was brass with both TG and BS, it would be an 1851 Navy .36 .

The 1860 used the same size frame as the 1851/1861 but with a longer grip profile, not discernible when just viewing the bottom of the butt.

The caliber would definitely be unknown, and I agree with Package4 about display protocol.

If that same person had a replica Rogers & Spencer, Spiller & Burr, T. W. Cofer, Manhattan, Remington NMA/NMN, et al, most re-enactors would not have a clue what was in the holster unless the revolver was brought out from the holster and displayed.

A replica 1851 Navy .44 is a "fantasy" gun and never was historical.

Regards,

Jim

 

[sourdough]

Possibly I should have mentioned that pocket pistols were sometimes carried by individual soldiers, either small single shots or even small Colt's.

Correct, but those were privately purchased guns and not issued. Any infantry soldier not taking advantage of available private hideout guns would have been a fool. They were a last-ditch gun when things really went bad, and they would have had to carry a few extra lead balls for a reload if they got out of the CQC alive.

Regards,

Jim

 

[Pollaco]

Package4 said "He is talking about buying a Colt"..... Actually he is Not, Colt never made that gun in 44 caliber.

 

[sourdough]

Actually, if we were to split hairs, we are not talking about Colt pistols, or Remington pistols, or anything else. We are speaking of Italian replicas. The Italians were usually using an original gun as a pattern, and stuck with that for the production run. Such was the case with Val Forgett (Navy Arms) who secreted a mismatched numbers 1851 Navy in the late 50's to Gregorelli and Uberti of Brescia, Italy. The same was true for ASM (Armi San Marco) or ASP (Armi San Paolo), among many other Italian small manufacturers from Northern Italy. They were imported by Navy Arms, Euroarms, Sile, EIG, Replica Arms (El Paso Texas and Marietta Ohio), and many others.

If we are talking about original 1851, 1861, and 1860 guns, there were so many variations in grips, cylinders, trigger guards, triggers, et al, that there is not one correct variation for any of those models.

If we are speaking of proper guns for re-enactors, the strict rules would have all of the replicas defarbed of all date codes, proof marks, and manufacturer's logos, as well as stampings of BP only, etc.

So, take your pick.

Regards,

Jim

 

[sourdough]

As the OP has not responded to any of this conversation, I am thinking troll.

Until he does, I am outta here.

Jim