Lincoln Better move for Rosecrans:

[wausaubob]

Once General Rosecrans' force made it to Chattanooga, he should asked to relieved and given command of western Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley. That's were his talents at intelligence work and concealment would have benefitted the US the most. He knew the people, he knew the terrain. That would have moved Rosecrans away from Grant and still allowed the US to benefit from Rosecrans' talents. In 1862 Stanton could treat Rosecrans as an irritant. But by August and September of 1863 Rosecrans was a capable officer, not yet tarnished by a tactical defeat.

 

[Jamieva]

To be clear do you mean before or after Chickamauga?

 

[Rhea Cole]

What happened to Rosecrans in North Georgia was that he outran his maps. The hyper aggressive Grant stated explicitly that he did not pursue the A of TN because there were no maps. The notoriously impatient Sherman delayed the entire Atlanta Campaign five days. That was to allow a sergeant & "…his motley crew…" to finish vital fact gathering. He stated flatly that he would not have advanced into Georgia without the resulting map.

Under intense pressure from Washington, Rosecrans attempted to do something neither Grant nor Sherman did without proper preparation.

After Stones River, Rosecrans crafted an army designed to take & hold Chattanooga. The logistics organization that ran from Cincinnati to Chattanooga was one of the unsung supreme triumphs of the war. Without it nothing could have been accomplished in Middle TN.

Have we ever read a denouncement of Sherman for taking (+/-) the same amount of time reshaping his army group for the Atlanta Campaign? The answer is no, accounts do not begin with whinging about Sherman doing nothing all that time.

That begs the question, could Rosecrans have withstood the drumbeat of pressure to charge into North Georgia without the necessary preparation? There we stare into the void. What we can conclude, however, is that without Sargent Finegan & his motley crew a successful Atlanta Campaign was all but impossible.

Armies are like tool boxes. Without the proper tools at hand, it is impossible to accomplish anything.

Note: After long years of study & contemplation, I have concluded that Rosecrans should have been commander of the Department of the Cumberland with Thomas as commander of the army. That way both their personal talents & their very fruitful partnership would have had scope to flourish. That, of course is another thought line leading into the void.

Note: It is worth noting that in the spring of 1863 no detailed maps of the State of Pennsylvania existed. General Lee's motley crew consisted of agents who bought up what local maps there were. Even the governor of the state only had political [showing county boundaries] maps. The A of the Potomac had the same map problem.

Demonstrably, advancing into enemy territory without adequate maps was an extremely hazardous undertaking.

 

[wausaubob]

To be clear do you mean before or after Chickamauga?

No. Once he got to Chattanooga. He should have said the logistical system from Louisville and Cincinnati was not ready and he was not going to endanger brave men with inadequate logistics. There was a lot of work to be done to upgrade the railroads and put steamboats in place. Chattanooga and Knoxville had been important political objectives, and Rosy had helped the US take both.

 

[wausaubob]

Rosecrans was different than Mcclerndan. Rosecrans was a real officer, with a West Point resume, and real operational talent. McClellan got most of the credit for what the two of them achieved in western Virginia. McClellan was not able to duplicate that success against Johnston and Lee. But with Thomas' help, Rosecrans replicated his Virginia gains in Tennessee. Lincoln always found a way to recycle his winning generals. Rosecrans had a better hand than he realized. He let Stanton pressure him into an unwise campaign, as stated above.

 

[Jamieva]

Once General Rosecrans' force made it to Chattanooga, he should asked to relieved and given command of western Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley. That's were his talents at intelligence work and concealment would have benefitted the US the most. He knew the people, he knew the terrain. That would have moved Rosecrans away from Grant and still allowed the US to benefit from Rosecrans' talents. In 1862 Stanton could treat Rosecrans as an irritant. But by August and September of 1863 Rosecrans was a capable officer, not yet tarnished by a tactical defeat.

So what force would he be taking over in the valley? That's a major step down from the unions 2nd largest army to a secondary theater.

 

[wausaubob]

So what force would he be taking over in the valley? That's a major step down from the unions 2nd largest army to a secondary theater.

We would have to speculate. I think Rosecrans would have had a lot more success that Franz Sigel. There could have been a big Chickamauga type fight in the Valley. But I doubt it. I just don't think Rosy would have been so easily surprised in western Virginia. It would be a step down. And Stanton would have argued against it. But its consistent with Lincoln's way of recycling his successful generals.
Grant and Rosecrans were oil and water. They were both better off when they weren't together.

 

[Jamieva]

Well the army Siegel had at new market is less than 10k. That's a major step down for a guy who is commanding the second largest army in the union. Sigel wasn't surprised he just was a terrible commander.

 

[wausaubob]

Well the army Siegel had at new market is less than 10k. That's a major step down for a guy who is commanding the second largest army in the union. Sigel wasn't surprised he just was a terrible commander.

It would depend on the US coming to an earlier realization of how important the Valley was to Richmond and the Confederacy.

 

[SSVilla]

Once General Rosecrans' force made it to Chattanooga, he should asked to relieved and given command of western Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley. That's were his talents at intelligence work and concealment would have benefitted the US the most. He knew the people, he knew the terrain. That would have moved Rosecrans away from Grant and still allowed the US to benefit from Rosecrans' talents. In 1862 Stanton could treat Rosecrans as an irritant. But by August and September of 1863 Rosecrans was a capable officer, not yet tarnished by a tactical defeat.

Problem with this is that Rosecrans ambition wouldn't go for that. He was already scheming to get Grant out of the way in the West, get himself promoted over him and even get Sherman at the head of The Army of the Tennessee. Rosecrans was highly insubordinate… he was headed for trouble as it was IMO. I wouldn't have minded at all to see him get a crack at Lee. He should have had that chance before some other's Lincoln tried instead… but I don't know how he would have handled the political pressure tbh.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Problem with this is that Rosecrans ambition wouldn't go for that. He was already scheming to get Grant out of the way in the West, get himself promoted over him and even get Sherman at the head of The Army of the Tennessee. Rosecrans was highly insubordinate… he was headed for trouble as it was IMO. I wouldn't have minded at all to see him get a crack at Lee. He should have had that chance before some other's Lincoln tried instead… but I don't know how he would have handled the political pressure tbh.

Have you read Henry Villard's comments about Rosecrans in Villard's memoirs? Villard was a journalist who spent time with Rosecrans' army in 1863. He believed that Rosecrans envisioned himself in overall command, and directing the war effort after Halleck was removed.

 

[SSVilla]

Have you read Henry Villard's comments about Rosecrans in Villard's memoirs? Villard was a journalist who spent time with Rosecrans' army in 1863. He believed that Rosecrans envisioned himself in overall command, and directing the war effort after Halleck was removed.

Nope. I haven't read him. Don't know who he is, (I'll look him up).

I have been combing the letters exchanged between Rosecrans and Lincoln and I have definitely soured on Old Rosy. He was a schemer of the worst kind because he was smart, but vainglorious and insolent.

Perhaps I'll make a thread with the letters exchanged between Lincoln and Rosy where he pretty much demands to be put in command in the west by virtue of backdating his commission. Lincoln politely declines.

There's evidence clearly of his intentions to get more power. In addition to asking for his commission to be backdated, he also had Garfield write to Chase to impress upon him how much better he could do with more - also in April 1863. Chase then writes Lincoln suggesting that Rosecrans be put in control of Grant's army and Grant I suppose be removed from command. And then there are Rosecrans friends and admirers in the Cincinnati Commercial, who didn't need to worry about military structure and can make outlandish demands.

Murat Halstead to Salmon P. Chase, Wednesday, April 01, 1863 (Drunkenness of General Grant) (very juicy letter from the press editor making hilariously false claims and asking for Rosecrans to get a 120,000 men army in the West.

IMO when you consider all the scheming he was involved in during April 1863, you can see the kind of hunger for power he had.

I might end up doing a post on it I just have been lazy in putting it together and don't care to be fighting the same old 10 angry men who swallow up the story that Rosy was undone by Grant. To me it's quite clear that through 1863 Rosy had been scheming hard for more rank and more power. It was in that foolish pursuit that he almost destroyed his own army on September 20-23 1863, acting against intelligence reports and miscalculating risks involved.

Now, I definitely would've liked to have seen him fight Lee earlier than this point. I have doubts he would have done as well as his admirers think he would. Another miscalculation like Chickamauga could have found him in his quest for glory in the East regardless because his smarts aside he had moments when he threw caution to the wind in a search for the spotlight. His irascible personality when dealing with authority also spells doom, so overall I am not sure tragedy wouldn't have found him there either, but considering the other generals who got chances, he could have been a better choice surely.

It must have just killed him to see Sherman with the 100,000 man army in the West that he wanted.

 

[wausaubob]

Have you read Henry Villard's comments about Rosecrans in Villard's memoirs? Villard was a journalist who spent time with Rosecrans' army in 1863. He believed that Rosecrans envisioned himself in overall command, and directing the war effort after Halleck was removed.

That would be consistent with Rosecrans overreaching once his army occupied Chattanooga. By August I believe Congress had approved of Grant's promotion to Major General of Regulars, which put Grant at the same level as just a few others. Stanton and Halleck had raised the stakes. Promotions were going to be based on results. Rosecrans did not think he had done enough.

 

[wausaubob]

Nope. I haven't read him. Don't know who he is, (I'll look him up).

I have been combing the letters exchanged between Rosecrans and Lincoln and I have definitely soured on Old Rosy. He was a schemer of the worst kind because he was smart, but vainglorious and insolent.

Perhaps I'll make a thread with the letters exchanged between Lincoln and Rosy where he pretty much demands to be put in command in the west by virtue of backdating his commission. Lincoln politely declines.

There's evidence clearly of his intentions to get more power. In addition to asking for his commission to be backdated, he also had Garfield write to Chase to impress upon him how much better he could do with more - also in April 1863. Chase then writes Lincoln suggesting that Rosecrans be put in control of Grant's army and Grant I suppose be removed from command. And then there are Rosecrans friends and admirers in the Cincinnati Commercial, who didn't need to worry about military structure and can make outlandish demands.

Murat Halstead to Salmon P. Chase, Wednesday, April 01, 1863 (Drunkenness of General Grant) (very juicy letter from the press editor making hilariously false claims and asking for Rosecrans to get a 120,000 men army in the West.

IMO when you consider all the scheming he was involved in during April 1863, you can see the kind of hunger for power he had.

I might end up doing a post on it I just have been lazy in putting it together and don't care to be fighting the same old 10 angry men who swallow up the story that Rosy was undone by Grant. To me it's quite clear that through 1863 Rosy had been scheming hard for more rank and more power. It was in that foolish pursuit that he almost destroyed his own army on September 20-23 1863, acting against intelligence reports and miscalculating risks involved.

Now, I definitely would've liked to have seen him fight Lee earlier than this point. I have doubts he would have done as well as his admirers think he would. Another miscalculation like Chickamauga could have found him in his quest for glory in the East regardless because his smarts aside he had moments when he threw caution to the wind in a search for the spotlight. His irascible personality when dealing with authority also spells doom, so overall I am not sure tragedy wouldn't have found him there either, but considering the other generals who got chances, he could have been a better choice surely.

It must have just killed him to see Sherman with the 100,000 man army in the West that he wanted.

Sherman probably was the real competition for Rosecrans. The administration did not need two star generals from Ohio and Sherman had political backing at a very high level. Sherman accumulated merit stars under Grant. Sherman had the support of the existing overall commander, Henry Halleck, and of the eventual overall commander, Grant.

 

[SSVilla]

Sherman probably was the real competition for Rosecrans. The administration did not need two star generals from Ohio and Sherman had political backing at a very high level. Sherman accumulated merit stars under Grant. Sherman had the support of the existing overall commander, Henry Halleck, and of the eventual overall commander, Grant.

Sherman was protected from a good deal of the jealousy and rivalries that would have come his way earlier because he had a vendetta with the press over the insane accusations and then getting surprised at Shiloh. He didn't have the best of reputations even if he was well connected. He didn't have enough clout as a skilled general to pose a threat to Rosy.

Sherman also was always subordinate to Grant, who protected him because most of the worst rivalries came Grants way. Sherman didn't want to be in command, be the commander that is. He preferred to be a first hand to the commander and Grant needed someone like that who was also competent because he was besieged by so many rivals. The partnership worked for them both really well. By the time Sherman got his own command, his friend Grant was the Lieutenant General and therefore, he was able to avoid a good bit of the backstabbing that would have come his way had he risen in fame earlier.

 

[SSVilla]

That would be consistent with Rosecrans overreaching once his army occupied Chattanooga. By August I believe Congress had approved of Grant's promotion to Major General of Regulars, which put Grant at the same level as just a few others. Stanton and Halleck had raised the stakes. Promotions were going to be based on results. Rosecrans did not think he had done enough.

I didn't know this but it makes perfect sense in Rosecrans wanting to go for the home run play. Anything else and he'd have to acquiesce to the fact Grant had beat him in the Game of Thrones he was running. There are also other things he writes at the time which are very suspicious of his wanting to play the press angle hard, and lets us know what he was aiming for, like not wanting to fight decisive battles at the same time as Grant — he wanted to command the full attention of the press when his time came.

 

[wausaubob]

Sherman was protected from a good deal of the jealousy and rivalries that would have come his way earlier because he had a vendetta with the press over the insane accusations and then getting surprised at Shiloh. He didn't have the best of reputations even if he was well connected. He didn't have enough clout as a skilled general to pose a threat to Rosy.

Sherman also was always subordinate to Grant, who protected him because most of the worst rivalries came Grants way. Sherman didn't want to be in command, be the commander that is. He preferred to be a first hand to the commander and Grant needed someone like that who was also competent because he was besieged by so many rivals. The partnership worked for them both really well. By the time Sherman got his own command, his friend Grant was the Lieutenant General and therefore, he was able to avoid a good bit of the backstabbing that would have come his way had he risen in fame earlier.

Sherman made the better choice. I think he could perceive that Grant knew the business of war, and I think Sherman also received sound advice that Grant was the preferred general from Illinois. Grant was more acceptable to the war time Republicans than the other generals from Illinois. And the newspapers always made a big deal out of Grant's successes.