Audacious and Dangerous

[Patrick H]

CSS Hunley
You want me to go underwater in that thing?

Audacious and dangerous for sure!

 

[Bruce Vail]

Audacious? How about the Confederate Secret Service plan to kidnap Lincoln?

The kidnap plan failed, of course. The rest is history...

 

[Bruce Vail]

The plan to free the 15,000 Confederate Prisoners was pretty radical and perhaps a little over enthusiastic and it was called off. Was there a plan or was Early reacting to a situation as it unfolded?

I thought of this first when I saw the question in the OP!

But I didn't post it because it was an abandoned plan.

I think it might have worked. Free 15,000 prisoners, give them guns and permission to loot Washington? Hell, half of the prisoners would have run all the way to Washington!

 

[Waterloo50]

I thought of this first when I saw the question in the OP!

But I didn't post it because it was an abandoned plan.

I think it might have worked. Free 15,000 prisoners, give them guns and permission to loot Washington? Hell, half of the prisoners would have run all the way to Washington!

Initially that was what I was thinking but then I read the post by mobile_96, and it became obvious that the plan never really had any chance of success, if you think about it, what kind of physical and mental condition would 15.000 just released POW's be in, they may have had the will to fight but I don't think the body would have been willing.

 

[leftyhunter]

Initially that was what I was thinking but then I read the post by mobile_96, and it became obvious that the plan never really had any chance of success, if you think about it, what kind of physical and mental condition would 15.000 just released POW's be in, they may have had the will to fight but I don't think the body would have been willing.

I am surprised no one mentioned the Crater at Petersburg. Great plan poorly executed.
Leftyhunter

 

[Yankeedave]

The assault on the grave yard road at Vicksburg.

 

[1950lemans]

I am surprised no one mentioned the Crater at Petersburg. Great plan poorly executed.
Leftyhunter

That reminds me of a General Butler scheme. He packed 200 tons of ammo into the USS Louisiana and was going to let it drift, as a blockade runner, to within 100 yds of Fort Fisher (just before Christmas, 1864). Well the weather got in the way and the navy detonated it about one mile off shore. It was the most spectacular fireworks the Yanks or Rebs ever seen. Failed.

 

[Waterloo50]

The other dangerous and audacious move would be Brice's Crossroads. Forrest was outnumbered three to one and had no doubt he could whip Sturgis. It was the only battle where a commander counted on the weather to make a win!

Like quite a few of the battles and plans mentioned in other posts I have had to find articles and do some reading up. The battle at Brice's crossroads is quite dramatic, I suppose you could call it a classic pincer movement by Forest on to the left and right flanks of the federal line, How daring was Forest to order the artillery to unlimber so close to the federal lines. In the couple of descriptions I have read of that battle, it seem that Forest had the momentum and he kept pressing forward. Sturgis complained after the battle that the main reason for his failure was that he lacked supplies and that his men were exhausted but from the little that I have read, it just looks like Forest was the better commander. I guess that Forest did have the weather on his side and his plan to make Federal retreat as difficult as possible was a stroke of pure military genius. Forest was formidable.

 

[Waterloo50]

I am surprised no one mentioned the Crater at Petersburg. Great plan poorly executed.
Leftyhunter

Was the Crater at Petersburg similar in size to the one at La Boisselle in France which went up 1st July 1916 on the Somme battlefield?

 

[Waterloo50]

John S. Mosby Capture of General Edwin Stoughton hasn't been suggested. I thought perhaps that plan would have to rank as pretty dangerous and clever, early special forces tactics right there.

 

[Brenal]

Was the Crater at Petersburg similar in size to the one at La Boisselle in France which went up 1st July 1916 on the Somme battlefield?

Petersburg:
A crater was created, 170 feet (52 m) long, 100 to 120 feet (30 to 37 m) wide, and at least 30 feet (9 m) deep.

La Boisselle:
The two charges of the Lochnagar mine created a vast, smooth sided, flat bottom crater about 220 feet (67 m) in diameter excluding the lip and 450 feet (140 m) across.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

I'm sorry, if there's a vote anywhere the Hunley has to share a top billing. Men piled into what amounted to a tin can, pedaled the thing underwater, at night, to pretty much glue a bomb to the bottom of an enemy ship. It still sounds crazy 150 years later.

Andrew's Raid was insanely audacious, too- glad to see that included.

 

[Waterloo50]

I'm sorry, if there's a vote anywhere the Hunley has to share a top billing. Men piled into what amounted to a tin can, pedaled the thing underwater, at night, to pretty much glue a bomb to the bottom of an enemy ship. It still sounds crazy 150 years later.

Andrew's Raid was insanely audacious, too- glad to see that included.

I think that at some point it may be an idea to get a vote organised for the most cunning plan.

A cunning plan: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKRxX3s3JlM

 

[diane]

Like quite a few of the battles and plans mentioned in other posts I have had to find articles and do some reading up. The battle at Brice's crossroads is quite dramatic, I suppose you could call it a classic pincer movement by Forest on to the left and right flanks of the federal line, How daring was Forest to order the artillery to unlimber so close to the federal lines. In the couple of descriptions I have read of that battle, it seem that Forest had the momentum and he kept pressing forward. Sturgis complained after the battle that the main reason for his failure was that he lacked supplies and that his men were exhausted but from the little that I have read, it just looks like Forest was the better commander. I guess that Forest did have the weather on his side and his plan to make Federal retreat as difficult as possible was a stroke of pure military genius. Forest was formidable.

The muggy heat in Mississippi in June is smothering if you're not used to it - Forrest knew the Northerners sure weren't. He was a farmer, after all, and knew about exertion under those conditions! John Morton was dumfounded when Forrest ordered him to 'go down yonder and give 'em all you got' all by himself alone. "Did the general mean for us to go down there unsupported?" asked Morton's lieutenant. They stared at each other a few moments. "You heard him!" snapped Morton...and he did it. Later he told Forrest, "You scared me, General. You scared me badly!" Forrest grinned. "I just wanted to see if the Yankees could take your guns away from you." Ed Bearss book on Forrest at Brice's Crossroads is the best, a classic...and out of print! But if you find it, grab it. Sturgis also had Grierson and some other good Union cavalry - Forrest had Buford and Bell. Good match up but way lopsided in Sturgis' favor - his problem was the USCT with him, and it was his problem. They were stoked and ready to fight but he didn't trust them - Grierson did, and his end of the field held well.

Forrest used a maneuver so chancy that even Napoleon wouldn't use it - and he rolled the dice plenty! That's probably because he had military training and Forrest didn't. He didn't know what it was called or how to order it - I'm-a goin up that ridge yonder and double up their column, then you come up with your guns... Sturgis fled the field with Forrest in pursuit, which was like having the Ring-Wraiths after you...

Sturgis was another general Forrest chewed up and spit out - he was never the same. When A J Smith tried his hand with Forrest, Sturgis paced nervously and muttered, "They just can't beat Old Forrest!" Eventually Sherman sent him out west to kick around Indians...and he didn't do that very well either...but he did get a motorcycle rally!

 

[Rio Bravo]

After the day's fighting at the battle of Fredericksburg, Stonewall Jackson came up with a plan so bizarre that even Burnside would have thought twice about it. Jackson suggested a night attack, in which Lee's entire Army would strip naked,(to help distinguish them from the Union troops in the darkness) before swimming the river and rushing at Burnside's shattered Army.
Was it Lee's prudishness or common sense, that prevented such mad antics in the middle of a snowy December night ?

P.S. Perhaps it was Jackson who first used the phrase "going Commando" !

 

[Waterloo50]

The muggy heat in Mississippi in June is smothering if you're not used to it - Forrest knew the Northerners sure weren't. He was a farmer, after all, and knew about exertion under those conditions! John Morton was dumfounded when Forrest ordered him to 'go down yonder and give 'em all you got' all by himself alone. "Did the general mean for us to go down there unsupported?" asked Morton's lieutenant. They stared at each other a few moments. "You heard him!" snapped Morton...and he did it. Later he told Forrest, "You scared me, General. You scared me badly!" Forrest grinned. "I just wanted to see if the Yankees could take your guns away from you." Ed Bearss book on Forrest at Brice's Crossroads is the best, a classic...and out of print! But if you find it, grab it. Sturgis also had Grierson and some other good Union cavalry - Forrest had Buford and Bell. Good match up but way lopsided in Sturgis' favor - his problem was the USCT with him, and it was his problem. They were stoked and ready to fight but he didn't trust them - Grierson did, and his end of the field held well.

Forrest used a maneuver so chancy that even Napoleon wouldn't use it - and he rolled the dice plenty! That's probably because he had military training and Forrest didn't. He didn't know what it was called or how to order it - I'm-a goin up that ridge yonder and double up their column, then you come up with your guns... Sturgis fled the field with Forrest in pursuit, which was like having the Ring-Wraiths after you...

Sturgis was another general Forrest chewed up and spit out - he was never the same. When A J Smith tried his hand with Forrest, Sturgis paced nervously and muttered, "They just can't beat Old Forrest!" Eventually Sherman sent him out west to kick around Indians...and he didn't do that very well either...but he did get a motorcycle rally!

From what you have said, It sounds like the lack of military training put Forest in a stronger position, I suppose, that if Forest wasn't aware of the do's and don'ts of military tactics then there was nothing to prevent him or hinder him from trying some pretty radical plans, he sounds like a man that used common sense, Alexander the Great was like that and so was Napoleon, all of them hard hitters, with regards to Napoleon, Wellington made the comment that 'the Emperor's presence on the battlefield was worth 40,000 men', Forest was very similar.

 

[leftyhunter]

Was the Crater at Petersburg similar in size to the one at La Boisselle in France which went up 1st July 1916 on the Somme battlefield?

Was the Crater at Petersburg similar in size to the one at La Boisselle in France which went up 1st July 1916 on the Somme battlefield?

Considering that fifty years later explosives were more powerful the Crater wasn't an altogether insignificant blast.
Leftyhunter

 

[diane]

From what you have said, It sounds like the lack of military training put Forest in a stronger position, I suppose, that if Forest wasn't aware of the do's and don'ts of military tactics then there was nothing to prevent him or hinder him from trying some pretty radical plans, he sounds like a man that used common sense, Alexander the Great was like that and so was Napoleon, all of them hard hitters, with regards to Napoleon, Wellington made the comment that 'the Emperor's presence on the battlefield was worth 40,000 men', Forest was very similar.

Sherman paraphrased Wellington and said the exact same thing about Forrest! That's why Forrest had his 12 star flag, which flew to let the enemy know he was personally present. Like Lee, his men knew who buttered their bread and made sure the general was protected - the escort was used at Brice's Crossroads as shock troops and they were very effective. The Union infantry arrived piecemeal, as Forrest anticipated, and his crack unit was ready for them. Nathan Boone was their commander, very good.

I've sometimes wondered if an education like West Point would have made Forrest a better commander or ruined him. Many, like Napoleon and Grant, were great despite their education! Others seemed locked into what they'd been taught. Guess that's the crucial difference in a decent commander and a great one. Forrest had a great disdain for West Point and said "Whenever I fit one of them West Pointers, I usually had him beat before he got his tune pitched."

Expired Image Removed

 

[donna]

General John Hunt Morgan The Greatest Raid. Starting in Ky, Indiana and Ohio. It was a daring raid but didn't have approval.

 

[Waterloo50]

Forrest had a great disdain for West Point and said "Whenever I fit one of them West Pointers, I usually had him beat before he got his tune pitched."

I'm pretty sure that great leaders can't be made, they are born.