Attack and Die

[gary]

by Grady McWhiney & Perry Jamieson.

The authors discuss how the aggressiveness of the South resulted in heavy casualties and thus their losing the war. They attribute the aggressiveness to the Celtic heritage of the South. In supporting their claim, they discuss how the Celts were aggressive in battle, relying on the charge, and little else for victory. They trace Celtic battles from the days when the Celts battled the Romans and show how the final struggle between Celts and the Anglos (who predominantly settled around New England & New York) was the American Civil War.

Fine & dandy, but it doesn't explain why Lee or Hood, both of whom are (by name) of English descent, were extremely aggressive. It doesn't explain how the Union Army was hardly any different (Fredericksburg, Cold Harbor II, Spotsylvania Court House) attacked and suffered high casualties.

Good reading book, but despite the scholarly cites, I remain skeptical. For me the redeeming quality of the book is it is the first time I've seen anything on the course of study of the antebellum West Point Cadet.

 

[ole]

Thanks for the heads-up Gary. There seems to be some scholarly interest in finding some correlation between heritage and the inclination toward aggressiveness. The "Celtic" hypothesis usually shows up.

As you've mentioned, that doesn't ring any bells. Was the South more Celtic than the North? Does a Celtic heritage promote the faux aristocratic pretentions -- the gentleman farmer?

Sam recommended a book sometime back and I've just spent 5 minutes looking for it. It presents an extensive study of who came from where in the British Isles, their ethnicity, and where they settled. The Roundheads, for example, tended to the north; the Cavaliers, the South. Were the Cavaliers Celtic?

That being said, the pre-War courses at West Point may well make up for the book's other shortcomings.

Thanks. Ole

 

[LoyalTexan]

Albion's Seed

Ole, I believe that the book you're referring to is called "Albion's Seed". I read the book and it is excellent. I think the celtic claim is a bunch of hogwash, there is no indication that the South was any more "celtic" than the north. If anything the South was and is more Anglo-Saxon in it's heritage than any other part of the country because the mass migrations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries by and large did not affect the South.

 

[ole]

Thanks, Loyal. What is it about Celtic that makes people want to be one?
Ole

 

[LoyalTexan]

Celtic

I think it's because to Americans being Celtic means Mel Gibson Movies, Green Beer and shamrocks. To be English, right or wrong, brings to mind tea drinking, snobbery, and Masterpiece Theater.

 

[samgrant]

The conclusion that the Southern Armies were 'aggressive' because of their Celtic makeup is ludicrace on the face of it.

 

[matthew mckeon]

I thought "Attack and Die" was very strong on CW tactics. The Celtic thing wasn't persuasive for me, but it was quite a big deal for McWhiney, who wrote other books claiming Southern culture was based on Celtic values.

 

[JerseyBart]

Maybe the southern army were so aggressive because they really didn't want to lose. I'm may not be of Celtic decent, but I also don't like to lose either. Losing stinks (I'd use stronger wording, but I'd get censored).

Bart

 

[ole]

I think it's because to Americans being Celtic means Mel Gibson Movies, Green Beer and shamrocks. To be English, right or wrong, brings to mind tea drinking, snobbery, and Masterpiece Theater.

And Benny Hill! Don't forget Benny Hill!
Ole

 

[JerseyBart]

And Eddie Izzard too.

Bart

 

[Miss Markie]

Well, being of Irish descent, and from a long line of brawlers, I can think of quite a few places you would not want to make that 'ludicrous' remark , samgrant!

It might not be the end-all, be-all of all arguments, but I think several other writers have mentioned the strong Celtic heritage having some influences on the 'aggressive' nature of the southern common soldier.

Also, in the Southern army, the number one immigrant group in terms of soldiers in the field were Irish. And number 2 in the north (number one immigrant group there were the German).

 

[larry_cockerham]

It was that dumb*** Napoleon who caused most of the problems with civil war tactics that made Hood look aggressive. He was just dumb. Forrest tried to tell him. Holding hands walking straight face into the enemy will drive up your insurance rates at best.

 

[ole]

Now I'm confused. Were the Cavaliers or Roundheads Celtic? Are Scotsmen Celts? Are Saxons Celts? Angles? (I know the Normans aren't -- wink, wink.) Guess I'll have to dig out Albion's Seed and give it a look see.

Miss Markie: I think Owsley made a big deal out of Celtic blood and heritage, but I had thought the English weren't particularly fond of the Irish or Scots.

Now I'm really confused.
Ole

 

[gary]

The English outlawed all thing Celtic after they conquered the Scots. They raised the 42nd (Royal Highlanders) Black Watch as a local regiment to watch them. Then they shipped them off to America but it was believed they would easily counter the Red Man (big mistake). The English did the same for the Irish and still haven't given up on Ireland.

Now, why anyone would wish they were of Celtic heritage? To lay claim to the most popular restaurant in the world. McDonalds. Fine Irish/Celtic cuisine, anytime, anywhere.

 

[gunny]

battle tactics

I have read most, but not all of ATTACK AND DIE and agree with Gary.

It seems that behavior in battle really has so little to do with ancestry and more to do with military culture.

Military culture being that behavior which is bred out of predecessors actions in battle and the results of that behavior or actions.

Sounds alot fancier than I anticipated - but I think I understand me.

My point more specifically - that tactics called for frontal assaults - not celtic ancestry or any other. The men that made these assaults both north and south were undeniably muts of all origins and military customs required no matter your ancestry - that you will attack when orders are given.

A pretty good book on explaining Civil War tactics is "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" by Paddy Griffith.

 

[mobile_96]

Don't forget Monty Pyton.
And Tom Baker, as Dr. Who.
Watched a BBC Production of The Silver Chair, part of the Chronicles of Narnia
set, in which Tom Baker plays a charactor.
Chuck in IL.

 

[JerseyBart]

Also, the original The Office which led to the current The Office. And like I said, Eddie Izzard.

Bart

 

[whitworth]

The Teachings at West Point

Most of the top generals were trained at West Point and that was the basis for their command decision.

Whatever military school ever taught remaining on the defensive?

 

[Robert B. Condon]

Would William Wallace have occupied Cemetery Hill on the evening of the first day?

 

[Miss Markie]

Well I do NOT like gin, cannot tolerate gin, and I always tell my husband it is because of my Irish/Celtic ancestry. I also tell him that the English invented gin so the Irish wouldn't take over the world...:laugh1: