Are all bayonets about the same?

[Jobe Holiday]

How did we get from the use of saber bayonets in the ACW to modern day tank rounds?
J.

 

[johan_steele]

It appears many world armies have came out with a wide variety of bayonets. However, many outwardly look a lot alike. I know there are differences, but many of the Bayonets used in the Civil War look similar to those used in the American Revolution and much like bayonets used in the Spanish American War.

During the Civil War some sabre bayonets, but were they often used as sabres? I do wonder if the sabre bayonets were worth the extra weight.

I have only carried two types of bayonets, the long M1942 on a shotgun and the M7 on the M16. The M1942 was longer, but not sure it was any better. Both seemed great to stab someone with. The M1942 is a bit heavy and awkward.

Are there period sources that show the men liked or disliked the sabre bayonets.

The standard bayonet across the world in the 1860's was the triangular bladed socket bayonet. Sabre bayonets were for specialized troop and generally only issued with rifles.

Almost every military was still using variations of Napoleanic tactics which viewed the musket as a carrier for the bayonet. The bayonet was still viewed as a valid side arm well into the 20th century.

US & CS troops would have driven an officer or NCO apoplectic with their lax discipline. There are numerous accounts of both US & CS units tossing their bayonets. But as the bayonet was govt property the soldier would have its cost docked from their pay. There are numerous accounts of soldiers doing it anyway.

The saber bayonet wasn't all the popular with the average soldier due to its weight and unwieldy size. By the end of the war there weren't a lot of saber bayonets out there. I don't think the US adopted a saber bayonet from the 1855 saber bayonet until the Krag. By that time socket bayonets had largely went out of style.

 

[Si Klegg]

We were doing a display once at the Aldershot Military Museum and I got chatting to an ex-British Army officer. He told me that it was against the Articles of War or the Geneva Convention to use metal polish to shine up a bayonet due to the polish being 'chemical warfare'.

Was he winding me up? I've never heard this before or since!

 

[Si Klegg]

The standard bayonet across the world in the 1860's was the triangular bladed socket bayonet. Sabre bayonets were for specialized troop and generally only issued with rifles.

Almost every military was still using variations of Napoleanic tactics which viewed the musket as a carrier for the bayonet. The bayonet was still viewed as a valid side arm well into the 20th century.

US & CS troops would have driven an officer or NCO apoplectic with their lax discipline. There are numerous accounts of both US & CS units tossing their bayonets. But as the bayonet was govt property the soldier would have its cost docked from their pay. There are numerous accounts of soldiers doing it anyway.

The saber bayonet wasn't all the popular with the average soldier due to its weight and unwieldy size. By the end of the war there weren't a lot of saber bayonets out there. I don't think the US adopted a saber bayonet from the 1855 saber bayonet until the Krag. By that time socket bayonets had largely went out of style.

I'm always wary of any 'chucking away their bayonets' stories. How on earth do you 'Stack Arms' if you've no bayonet? One man in every four could get away with it I guess seeing as the No 1 man in the rear rank only leans his weapon in, but I can't see that lasting long before his comrades take action

 

[Glen_C]

Sadly this guy did not come out until 1872. Often called the 1872 trowel bayonet.

View attachment 201710

It would make a wide wound. I do wonder what Civil War solders would have thought about it.

Don't you mean the 1873?
http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/...-the-five-most-impractical-military-bayonets/

Who's yer daddy?
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/72/134/scarce-us-model-1869-trowel-bayonet-with-scabbard

Cheers
GC

 

[johan_steele]

We were doing a display once at the Aldershot Military Museum and I got chatting to an ex-British Army officer. He told me that it was against the Articles of War or the Geneva Convention to use metal polish to shine up a bayonet due to the polish being 'chemical warfare'.

Was he winding me up? I've never heard this before or since!

He was talking through his hat.

 

[johan_steele]

I'm always wary of any 'chucking away their bayonets' stories. How on earth do you 'Stack Arms' if you've no bayonet? One man in every four could get away with it I guess seeing as the No 1 man in the rear rank only leans his weapon in, but I can't see that lasting long before his comrades take action

It's quite possible to stack arms with the ramrod.

 

[redbob]

That's why I went US Army Armor No bayonet required. I have always felt that if they got close enough for you to have to use a bayonet your were pretty well screwed.

Those were my thoughts with an M109 SPH wrapped around me, it may have only been aluminum, but it was still thicker than a fatigue jacket.

 

[redbob]

While the United States was pretty good at having the bayonet specified for the weapon actually fit the weapon, the British seemed not to be so particular. All because you had an Enfield specific bayonet (either angular or sword), that didn't necessarily mean that it was going to fit your Enfield. Whenever I've tried to fit an Enfield bayonet to an Enfield Rifle, it was always a crapshoot on whether or not it was going to fit. And while I can understand the British desire to manufacture bespoke suits and automobiles, mass produced arms are another thing entirely.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

The trowel bayonet shown earlier for the post CW trap door Springfield was meant for entrenching and putting it on the end of the rifle's barrel gave the digger a shovel of sorts. It really wasn't seriously considered a weapon. There were no bayonet charges during the Indian Wars.

And the so-called "butcher bayonets" of German engineers with their saw toothed top edge to the bayonet blade were meant to cut down the wooden poles used to string barbed wire on early in WWI. They rapidly became obsolete because both sides began using metal poles instead of wooden ones. Those engineer troops were meant to crawl forward to cut the barbed wire wooden poles at the base before the infantry went "over the top." The Germans didn't follow up with a hacksaw bladed bayonet!

The Allies made a field day of portraying the German "Huns" as inhuman beasts armed with those saw tooth bayonets to stir up the home front.

 

[Si Klegg]

He was talking through his hat.

I thought so too, but I've learned never to argue with an Officer, you will always lose

 

[7thWisconsin]

Actually, with a bayonet to cut the sod, and loosen the soil, and a large cup and plate to remove earth, you can make a rifle pit just about as well as you can dig a foxhole with an entrenching tool. I think that combination was on purpose, if not by direct design.

 

[Si Klegg]

It's quite possible to stack arms with the ramrod.

I can understand that some elements of the Confederate Army were not as reliant on the bayonet as the Union Army, at least early-mid war, considering many units were upgrading to .577 & .58 cal Enfields and Springfields from the old .69 cal 1842 smoothbores. There are records showing Confederate battlefield pick-ups of dropped Union rifles much outweighing bayonet pick-ups, but then, if you hadn't fixed bayonets during the battle, your bayonet would still be in your scabbard if you'd dropped your rifle and ran.

.69 cal bayonets don't fit .58/.577 cal Springfields and Enfields but then Springfield bayonets don't fit Enfields and many Enfield bayonets don't even fit other Enfields.

This anomaly would go some way to explain statements like Carlton McCarthy's [Detailed Minutiae of Soldier Life in the Army of Northern Virginia 1861-65] oft-quoted 'The infantry found that the bayonet was not of much use, and did not hesitate to throw them, along with the scabbard, away.' McCarthy, bless him, was an Artilleryman, not the highest authority on Infantry activities I'd hazard.

I would contend though, that once Confederate units had standardized weapons, they would have bayonets to fit. They'd be particularly valuable to an Infantryman as the war changed from out-in-the-open fighting to trench warfare. How else do you dig a hole in anything but sand? Your tin plate is fine for removing loosened earth, but you have to break up that earth first. Allan Redwood's sketches of Confederate infantry seem to be mostly carrying bayonets:

As to the Union Army, I think it's already been stated that soldiers would be charged for loss of equipment. In general, the Union Army was far ahead of the Confederate Army as regards standardization of weapons in the early war so bayonet sizing or fitting wouldn't be the problem it was for many Rebel units. There are several accounts of units practicing 'McClellan's Bayonet Drill' though I don't have any data for Confederate units doing the same.

So, being necessary for stacking arms, necessary for digging earthworks and, as illustrated by Wilbur F. Hinman [Corporal Si Klegg and his Pard] useful for all sorts of other activities, I believe the Bayonet, certainly by mid-war, would very rarely have been thrown away.

 

[Stone in the wall]

I think using the 50 caliber can be use on ground troops. I think the against the Geneva Convention is likely a myth.

major bill-- you always seem to have the most interesting forums. I really like them anyway.

 

[johan_steele]

In my view a man may have tossed his bayonet aside once. Then after having to pay for it in one way or another he wouldn't make that mistake twice.

 

[Glen_C]

"butcher bayonets"

Because the umlaut in Blücher is difficult to master

Cheers
GC

 

[Legion Para]

The trowel bayonet shown earlier for the post CW trap door Springfield was meant for entrenching and putting it on the end of the rifle's barrel gave the digger a shovel of sorts. It really wasn't seriously considered a weapon. There were no bayonet charges during the Indian Wars.

And the so-called "butcher bayonets" of German engineers with their saw toothed top edge to the bayonet blade were meant to cut down the wooden poles used to string barbed wire on early in WWI. They rapidly became obsolete because both sides began using metal poles instead of wooden ones. Those engineer troops were meant to crawl forward to cut the barbed wire wooden poles at the base before the infantry went "over the top." The Germans didn't follow up with a hacksaw bladed bayonet!

The Allies made a field day of portraying the German "Huns" as inhuman beasts armed with those saw tooth bayonets to stir up the home front.

 

[Package4]

He was talking through his hat.

You put it too kindly......

 

[KDMEEK]

That's why I went US Army Armor No bayonet required. I have always felt that if they got close enough for you to have to use a bayonet your were pretty well screwed.

A friend's father volunteered for the submarine service because he was afraid of being bayonetted.

 

[mofederal]

The Germans in WWII were pretty fond of using 20 m/m flak wagons on infantry, so later on we responded with quad 50's. The bayonet had many uses in war, as can openers and digging tools, the uses were endless and only required imagination. Some people might have actually used them on the enemy.