Antietam or where?

[bankerpapaw]

If Corporal Mitchell had not found the three cigars wrapped in paper, where would the Yanks and Rebs
clashed?

 

[ole]

Somewhere north of Hagerstown?

Ole

 

[OpnDownfall]

Antietan or where?

It really wound depend upon the intentions of Lee. I always though Lee was in Maryland to Allow the State to decide to join the confederacy. I find now, that there are those who think, his intent was similar to his 1863 raid into Pa. and he was aiming at Pa. and Washington D.C.
In either case though, it is difficult to seen McClellan being successful against Lee. It is doubtful that McClellan would have even seen the ANV, until Lee attacked him.
In this emergency, it is also doubtful that Lincoln could keep an obviously reluctant commander in place. But ultimately, it is likely that the AoP would end up in the Washington D.C. lines. The most likely event would be he seat of war might have move out of Northern Va. and into Md. for some time to come.

 

[Redmen110]

I have always felt that if McClellan had acted on the information the same way Lee would have (immediately), he could have struck whilst Lee was still divided. But even then with little Mac believing that Lee had over 100,000 troops (I think it was closer to 30,000, if undivided), would he have been aggressive enough to make the move needed to destroy Lee?

I think not. McClellan suffered from the worst case of low self esteem...his correspondence with his wife has shown that he revelled in all the attention and respect thrown at him so quickly, that he seemed paralyzed by the possibility that a costly move on the battlefield would prove him less that a God....the very thing he thought he was....... a great example of someone believing his own press.

I wonder if he ever had a moment of clarity, and realized that he might have been able to save hundreds of thousands of lives, had he acted quickly and decisively.


Regarding the question of Lee's intentions above...here's my .02......I think, rather sophmorically, that the South was soooo close to getting the overseas recognition it needed, and if Lee was able to cement another victory on "northern" soil...it could have very easily resulted in the backing andd support form across the pond that the South so desperately needed and wanted..

Redmen

 

[5fish]

Choice

I wonder if Lee had a place pick out where he wanted to comfort the union army of was he just waiting for happenstance...knowing Lee he already had a place picked out but never got there due to those cigars...just like he's later Northern Campaign, he did not fight on his ground of choice

Both of lee's campaigns into the north ended in battles not of his choosing....

 

[ole]

It really would depend upon the intentions of Lee. I always though Lee was in Maryland to Allow the State to decide to join the confederacy. I find now, that there are those who think, his intent was similar to his 1863 raid into Pa. and he was aiming at Pa. and Washington D.C.

That about sums it up. I usually figure that he went up there to fatten up his animals and men, and incidentally to recruit some Marylanders. Maybe he was looking to force McClellan to do battle on grounds of his (Lee's) choosing. I really doubt that he had designs on Washington.

Ole

 

[TerryB]

James M. McPherson wrote an essay called "If the Lost Order Hadn't Been Lost." He thinks it was Lee's intent to rest his army for a few days at Hagerstown, then take up defensive positions at Gettysburg. The essay proposes that another Fredericksburg would have resulted, only worse.

A quote from the essay; "[Brig. Gen. John G.]Walker expressed astonishment at the boldness of this plan, which would leave the Union army in his rear. "Are you acquainted with General McClellan?" Lee responded. "He is an able general but a very cautious one. . .His army is in a very demoralized and chaotic condition and will not be prepared for offensive operations --or he will not think it so--for three or four weeks. Before that time I hope to be on the Susquehanna."

 

[OpnDownfall]

Antietan or Where?

I meant Washington D.C. in the context of bundling McClellan and the AoP into the city's defensive works so he would have a free hand to convince frightened Marylanders that he could defend their decision to join the confederacy.
If he could do so, the war would have been moved out of Va. and into Md. (with excursions into Pa. from time to time) for however long it took Lincoln to find an adequate commander for the AoP.
In real life, an adequate commander did not appear until the middle of 1863 and a winning commander, not until 1864.

 

[101combatvet]

I would agree that Lee was taking the war to the north. I have heard at least one historian say that it was a prelude to Gettysburg.... I think this assessment maybe correct. To answer the original question the battle would have been further north without question.

I meant Washington D.C. in the context of bundling McClellan and the AoP into the city's defensive works so he would have a free hand to convince frightened Marylanders that he could defend their decision to join the confederacy.
If he could do so, the war would have been moved out of Va. and into Md. (with excursions into Pa. from time to time) for however long it took Lincoln to find an adequate commander for the AoP.
In real life, an adequate commander did not appear until the middle of 1863 and a winning commander, not until 1864.

 

[Jamieva]

If the lost order is not found, I think Jackson rejoins the army at South Mountain, and they go right on into PA as they did 10 months later. Battle happens somewhere in southern PA, maybe even has far as Harrisburg.

 

[ole]

Lee would concentrate his force and now have to fight his way through the passes with McC choosing where and when to fight.

 

[OpnDownfall]

Hmmm, Lee Or the Washington Defenses, which would McClellan choose???
McClellan, would never have resisted the siren call of a fortified position from which to rest and refit at his leisure.(and if Lincoln tried to intefere, even better; it would be the excuse he was looking for, to resign)