Grant About Grant

[KansasFreestater]

I've adapted his 'I-only-know-two-tunes-one-is-Yankee-Doodle-and-the-other-isn't' quip to other circumstances; most notably, as a city boy, I can't recognize crops very well, which the people in the small town I lived in for a while found hilarious (as with my not knowing the word "silage" when it came up in a crossword puzzle)... so I would say that "I only know two crops. One is corn, and the other isn't."

My mom will never live down the time in Vegas at a Jay Leno show when Jay was doing a shtick about differences between men and women, and he randomly picked out my mom in the audience, asked her what kind of car she had, and she said "white."

 

[cash]

My mom will never live down the time in Vegas at a Jay Leno show when Jay was doing a shtick about differences between men and women, and he randomly picked out my mom in the audience, asked her what kind of car she had, and she said "white."

I think Jay was probably happy as a clam to get that answer.

 

[James N.]

Oh, there are plenty of people falling all over themselves to tell stories about Grant that leave a favorable impression. But stories that reflect poorly on his character get swept under the carpet. He is the 21st century version of the marble man...

Admittedly, none of above is proof that Grant benefitted from cotton trade, but the point is that almost all biographers and civil war commentators ignore it...because he is the marble man.

I don't think that's really true, at least not from the mid-twentieth century onward. Likely it was true while Grant was alive and especially during the wave of nostalgia following his death; but in the early 1900's muckrakers focusing on the scandals and corruption of his presidency didn't need to reach back that far. Starting in the post-WWII era, writers like Lloyd Lewis and Bruce Catton sought to rehabilitate Grant, or at least his wartime record; more modern biographies like McFeely's Grant have been more critical of the kind of activities you mention, as well as others. I have certainly seen these accusations before; you just need to be selective about the works about Grant you reference and take into account the times in which some of them were written.

 

[KansasFreestater]

I'm guessing from @War Horse 's signature quotation that he's seen this already, but anyone new to the Grant-Longstreet friendship should check out this beautiful tribute to Grant from Longstreet that was published the day Grant died. I get tears in my eyes every time I read it!

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Was Longstreet the one who said something like, "There's a man that I hope the Union never discovers - Grant" ? I can't remember the exact quote.

 

[War Horse]

I'm guessing from @War Horse 's signature quotation that he's seen this already, but anyone new to the Grant-Longstreet friendship should check out this beautiful tribute to Grant from Longstreet that was published the day Grant died. I get tears in my eyes every time I read it!

I am indeed familiar and it is a very touching story. Let us have a game of Bragg! Earlier in the thread I told a story of Grant owing money to an old friend, Grant being broke insisted on settling the debt, his friend attempted to refuse payment but then took it as not to offend Grant. The friend was non other than James Longstreet. These two men were indeed like brothers.

 

[War Horse]

Years later, I happened to be in St. Louis and there met Captain Holloway and some other army chums. We went into the Planters House to talk over old times, and it was soon proposed to have an old time game of brag, but it was found we were one short of making up a full hand. Then a poorly dressed man in citizens clothes came in and in whom we recognized as our old chum Grant. Going into civil life Grant had been unfortunate, and he was really in needy circumstances.

The next day I was walking in front of the Planters when I found myself face to face with Grant, who, placing into the palm of my hand a 5 dollar gold piece, insisted that I should accept payment of a debt of honor 15 years old. I peremptorily declined to take it, alleging that he was out of service and more in need than I. 'You must take it,' said he. 'I cannot live with anything in my possession that is not mine.' Seeing the determination in the man's face, and in order to save him the mortification, I took the money and shaking hands, we parted.

http://www.granthomepage.com/intlongstreet.htm

 

[War Horse]

Was Longstreet the one who said something like, "There's a man that I hope the Union never discovers - Grant" ? I can't remember the exact quote.

I have that quote somewhere and I will try and find. I do believe it was Longstreet who said it. It's a great premonition of what was to come.

 

[KansasFreestater]

I am indeed familiar and it is a very touching story. Let us have a game of Bragg! Earlier in the thread I told a story of Grant owing money to an old friend, Grant being broke insisted on settling the debt, his friend attempted to refuse payment but then took it as not to offend Grant. The friend was non other than James Longstreet. These two men were indeed like brothers.

Every time I read about the Wilderness, I wonder, what was going through those two men's heads -- old friends separated by only a couple of miles, with a living hell in between them, killing each other's men by the thousands, knowing one must win and one must lose....

 

[War Horse]

Every time I read about the Wilderness, I wonder, what was going through those two men's heads -- old friends separated by only a couple of miles, with a living hell in between them, killing each other's men by the thousands, knowing one must win and one must lose....

I think of the fires consuming the wounded. Terrifying

 

[Henry Whitworth]

I have that quote somewhere and I will try and find. I do believe it was Longstreet who said it. It's a great premonition of what was to come.

When Longstreet heard that Grant had been promoted to lead the Union armies:

"We must make up our minds to get into line of battle and to stay there; for that man will fight us every day and every hour till the end of the war. In order to whip him, we must outmaneuver him, and husband our strength as best we can."

He knew his friend all right.

 

[OldGreyMare]

Hmm... interesting theory. But although Grant was very honest, he was also extremely circumspect, very savvy about whom he told what. Most of the autism-spectrum people I've known do not show that ability.

But then again, Grant's famous imperturbability -- sitting there on a stump calmly writing orders while shells exploded over his head and bullets whizzed by missing him by inches, seemingly without his ever even noticing, much less fearing them -- does kind of make you wonder. And he was like that -- unconscious of danger -- ever since infancy. One time when he was just a toddler, someone fired a gun near his head and he never even flinched. And yet, for all his seeming indifference to loud noises, he absolutely hated music -- all music, every genre -- how weird is that? In my whole life, I've known one -- and only one -- person who disliked all music. That's so rare, it's just freaky. Apparently, Grant couldn't even make out a tune. What you or I hear as a melody apparently just sounded like random noise to him. This, despite his very high intelligence in so many other areas.

Well, I have no idea if the fellow was or not...the condition isn't well understood even today, and it certainly isn't like somebody was running a DSMV on folks back then. I've always just wondered...as some of the things written about him does kind of ring a bell (I have two daughters with the condition, and have worked with some -- there are some similarities, including the descriptors you provided, although the sound sensitivity doesn't necessarily translate into hating music, still outside stimuli do effect them far differently than the "average" person.).
I should probably reiterate, that as far as I'm concerned having the condition does not make somebody lesser than or cursed or whatever -- in some situations it can be a gift (the amount of focus that many functioning to highly functioning autists can apply is usually far greater ; plus their ability to sense the world in a different way can be a great aid as well) -- and there are probably far more highly functioning autistics out there than most people think (one could say then that it is actually quite a normal thing to be!).
It does however mean that they frequently find themselves very misunderstood and misunderstand in turn.

 

[Quara]

Was Longstreet the one who said something like, "There's a man that I hope the Union never discovers - Grant" ? I can't remember the exact quote.

I have that quote somewhere and I will try and find. I do believe it was Longstreet who said it. It's a great premonition of what was to come.

It was Richard Ewell in May 1861, before Grant got back into the army, but after the start of the war (I always found it ironic that the guy who won the war had the hardest time getting into it)

In a letter (possibly to R. E Lee) Ewell said:
"There is one West Pointer, I think in Missouri, little known, and whom I hope the northern people will not find out. I mean Sam Grant. I knew him well at the Academy and in Mexico. I should fear him more than any of their officers I have yet heard of…"

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

That's the one. Ewell... The officer corps certainly was a small fraternity, wasn't it? (Even more so on the naval side...)

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

When the American army was closing on Mexico City, two mountain howitzers were placed on the roof of the church of San Cosme. One was commanded by Lt. Ulysses S. Grant; the other was commanded by a naval lieutenant accompanying General Worth's staff by the name of Raphael Semmes. Neither mentioned the other in their memoirs, and it appears that they simply didn't know who the other was, then or later...

 

[War Horse]

It was Richard Ewell in May 1861, before Grant got back into the army, but after the start of the war (I always found it ironic that the guy who won the war had the hardest time getting into it)

In a letter (possibly to R. E Lee) Ewell said:
"There is one West Pointer, I think in Missouri, little known, and whom I hope the northern people will not find out. I mean Sam Grant. I knew him well at the Academy and in Mexico. I should fear him more than any of their officers I have yet heard of…"

Thank you so much I have been racking my brain all night wondering who said that.

 

[FarawayFriend]

Thank you so much I have been racking my brain all night wondering who said that.

I also thought it was Longstreet. Sounded like him.

 

[War Horse]

I don't think that's really true, at least not from the mid-twentieth century onward. Likely it was true while Grant was alive and especially during the wave of nostalgia following his death; but in the early 1900's muckrakers focusing on the scandals and corruption of his presidency didn't need to reach back that far. Starting in the post-WWII era, writers like Lloyd Lewis and Bruce Catton sought to rehabilitate Grant, or at least his wartime record; more modern biographies like McFeely's Grant have been more critical of the kind of activities you mention, as well as others. I have certainly seen these accusations before; you just need to be selective about the works about Grant you reference and take into account the times in which some of them were written.

Excellent point. I have seen some of these less than flattering stories as well. Non amount to much other than showing Grant to be human with faults like everyone else plus a little extra mixed in. Very good point.

 

[War Horse]

It was Richard Ewell in May 1861, before Grant got back into the army, but after the start of the war (I always found it ironic that the guy who won the war had the hardest time getting into it)

In a letter (possibly to R. E Lee) Ewell said:
"There is one West Pointer, I think in Missouri, little known, and whom I hope the northern people will not find out. I mean Sam Grant. I knew him well at the Academy and in Mexico. I should fear him more than any of their officers I have yet heard of…"

Please send me to link you found this quote at. I would like to same it this time to somewhere I can actually find it. It is an excellent quote.

 

[Quara]

Please send me to link you found this quote at. I would like to same it this time to somewhere I can actually find it. It is an excellent quote.

I have a weird memory for quotes and facts--if I've read it, I remember it. (I'm scary good at trivia night), so I think I saw it here at some point.

I googled the verbatim quote and found a few references, but not the original source. I'm still digging, but here are some references:

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs013/1102264498897/archive/1105502866327.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=LflbjPyOXVIC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=There is one West Pointer, I think in Missouri, little known, and whom I hope the northern people will not find out&source=bl&ots=POdqdm0Rp5&sig=FUcl4HYtYPo6SZCGT2qZCrireVc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e5iMVOzuLePLsAS67oH4CA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwCQ

Also, the quote is a little longer and is so on point it makes me wonder why the confederates didn't try to neutralize Grant early on. Here's the full quote:

"There is one West Pointer, I think in Missouri, little known, and whom I hope the northern people will not find out. I mean Sam Grant. I knew him well at the Academy and in Mexico. I should fear him more than any of their officers I have yet heard of. He is not a man of genius, but he is clear-headed, quick and daring."

As to the original source it was either in conversation about potential adversaries (man, to be a fly on the wall in that conversation!) or in a letter to Lee himself. The quote language is so consistent that it makes me think it was a letter. It's consistently dated as being from May 1861, and the mistake about Grant being in Missouri backs up the date (that is, this wasn't written in hindsight, tho is likely so well remembered due to hindsight)

On a semi-related note it's always struck me as odd that at least some high up in the confederacy saw Grant as a threat very early on, while the union was still openly dismissing him. It's like the official records weren't complete enough, so personal experience filled in the gaps in the war's early stages. Maybe no one in union high command had any personal experiences with Grant from Mexico. Did the men who actually fought alongside him in Mexico go south in greater numbers than north? Either way, it seems that the union's intelligence gathering about their own potential officer pool was lacking.