Perryville A time to challenge historians' citations.

[Biscoitos]

I recently had coffee with an ward winning historian. He is about to publish a book with LSU press. He has worked on it for eight years. When I ran into him he was finishing up a months long job of work on the index. The sheer amount of grunt work that goes into the footnotes, index & proofreading that a genuine history requires is impossible to exaggerate.

But nevertheless is an integral part of the work.

 

[gunny]

You posted the statements you objected to without citing the footnotes that accompanied them. I assume that means there are none. Otherwise you would have referred to them in your critique. That's all.

The early ones I mention aren't footnoted, but here are some of the many examples I used of the citations. Clearly I didn't mention every footnote, but I count no less than twelve footnotes by number and the citations that were to support the Noe's narrative followed by reasons why the narrative did not reflect the primary sources. I did so similarly with Hafftendorfer work.

On page 204, Hafendorfer asserts that Donelson moved his brigade to the left behind a "large knoll" after ascending the west bank of Chaplin River. The citation for this is John Savage's autobiography. None of Savage's testimony mentions the brigade or his regiment moving left to the cover of a large knoll. Donelson's own report mentions nothing of seeking cover or moving his brigade to the left—only that he formed it in line of battle "in an open field."

Hafendorfer then utilizes Percival Oldershaw's report to explain that Parsons' right guns were turned when the Sixteenth Tennessee was within 300 yards of the battery. He describes the heavy cannon fire that begins to decimate the rebel regiment. But rather than 300 yards, Oldershaw describes in two different accounts that the enemy that the battery fired into was not more than 90 yards away. Oldershaw's account is very revealing.

On page 195, Noe states that Donelson "approached him and directed him to assault the only Federal battery barely visible on the horizon—Sam Harris's Indiana battery…" The citation for this is footnote #42. The citations for that footnote are Savage's autobiography, Chaplin Cross' Camp and Field, Warner's Generals in Gray and Author's Perryville Tour Notes, July 17, 1999. None of these citations actually support the statement that Donelson ordered Savage to assault Harris' battery. In all probability, it was the tour notes that he wrote dictated by Kurt Holman at the State Park from which he inserted this speculation into his narrative. This narrative began with Hafendorfer's book written eighteen years earlier.

This is footnoted by #56 and 57. The citations used to substantiate this claim do not reflect the narrative that Noe has provided. The first source cited is Percival Oldershaw who was at Parsons' battery when it first opened fire. "I myself was in the front, near to General Jackson, and when we first saw them they were not more than 90 yards from us, in the woods. … We had time to turn the cannons around a little and fire a few rounds of grape at this short range of not more than 90 yards." (OR, Pt. 1, Vol. 16, p. 1060). It is evident this source cannot support the narrative due to distances. Oldershaw's distance would put the rebel force less than a third of the distance to the Rebel cemetery.

On page 166, Hafendorfer explains that Jones' brigade "was to move forward between Johnson and Wood." The only citation following this is the report of Col. Marks of the Seventeenth Tennessee which makes no mention of any of the assumptions that Hafendorfer has made. Later in the same paragraph a citation is made regarding Brig. Gen. Johnson's report, but upon examination, there is no mention of Jones' or Wood's brigades. Captain Stanford's report indicates that Jones' brigade was in the front line and Wood's brigade was in reserve in rear of Jones.

You have to read the whole post to understand that I did do exactly what you said I didn't do.

 

[Drew]

Yes. My work is in the making. May take a couple of years (x3) but it WILL happen.

I drove through Spring Hill on my way to our recent CWT muster at Stones River. Slowed down and thought of you.

When you're done with Perryville, I'm a buyer.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The early ones I mention aren't footnoted, but here are some of the many examples I used of the citations. Clearly I didn't mention every footnote, but I count no less than twelve footnotes by number and the citations that were to support the Noe's narrative followed by reasons why the narrative did not reflect the primary sources. I did so similarly with Hafftendorfer work.







You have to read the whole post to understand that I did do exactly what you said I didn't do.

I didn't say you did anything.

 

[gunny]

There is confusion, I thought you said this...

You posted the statements you objected to without citing the footnotes that accompanied them. I assume that means there are none. Otherwise you would have referred to them in your critique. That's all.

LOL

 

[Rhea Cole]

There is confusion, I thought you said this...

LOL

OK

 

[Rhea Cole]

Had an interesting chat with local Civil War friends about this very subject.

Shelby Foote & Ed Bearss was the topic of conversation. Forte, as we all know, made a point of saying that he wasn't a historian. He wrote a narrative, not a scholarly history. Ed Bearss, on the other hand, was not only an implacable researcher, he also had a wife who was an excellent historian in her own right. He had a live in fact checker & editor.

One of our coffee drinkers was about to discuss Burn's Civil War documentary with students. He wanted to know what we thought about it.

Shelby Foote repeats several apocryphal stories. Grant, on a drunken bender, was not saved from ruin by a correspondent. The man was nowhere near where he claimed to be. Forrest pulling a Yankee up behind him at Shiloh is from a work of fiction. Both were written decades after the war. To this day, both are fervently believed by individuals who have personal agendas rather than historic factual rigor as their goal.

Ed Bearss, in his characteristic manner, was spot on in his statements. As someone who knew him well said, Ed was, 'a d****ned rat terrier' when it came to pursuing a source. That combined with his supernatural memory were a formidable combination. I am told that the excellent footnotes, etc. in his many books were very much a partnership with his wife, Margie Riddle.

With my own ears, I heard Foote reply to a question that, "Southern storytellers never let the facts get in the way of a good story." That does not mean that Foote did not care about the factual content of his books. However, they were very much a personal narrative, not a history. I don't know if I have ever seen a reference to Foote in a footnote. That is not what his work should be read for.

My point is that if you are going to nit pick Shelby Foote, you are woofing up the wrong tree. On the other hand, if you are entering the lists with Ed Bearss, you better tighten your straps, hitch up your boots & dig your spurs in deep.

 

[Chattahooch33]

Ok so I found this thread because I'm looking for the best overview of Perryville and now I'm all confused. Which should I buy?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Ok so I found this thread because I'm looking for the best overview of Perryville and now I'm all confused. Which should I buy?

I would suggest you call up the folks at Perryville Battlefield. It is a Kentucky State Historical Park. The staff there are very knowledgeable & eager to assist. Nobody would know the literature like they do.

(859) 332-8631
<parks.ky.gov>perryville>

Perryville is about as untouched as a Civil War battlefield could be. Well worth a visit. Plan to stay at nearby Pleasant Hill Shaker village. Personally, I found that battle incomprehensible until I went there. The lay of the land is everything in the narrative of that conflict. e.g., Standing were Pardon's battery was overrun is revelatory. An entire brigade could quite easily come boiling up in your face like rabbits out of a hat.

 

[gunny]

Ok so I found this thread because I'm looking for the best overview of Perryville and now I'm all confused. Which should I buy?

So, I would suggest this work. It is the best brief overview of the battle without getting into all the incorrect minutia that the two main works do.

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series): Kolakowski, Christopher L.: 9781596296725: Amazon.com: Books

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series) [Kolakowski, Christopher L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series)

www.amazon.com

 

[Rhea Cole]

So, I would suggest this work. It is the best brief overview of the battle without getting into all the incorrect minutia that the two main works do.

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series): Kolakowski, Christopher L.: 9781596296725: Amazon.com: Books

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series) [Kolakowski, Christopher L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series)

www.amazon.com

Kolakowski is excellent.

 

[Chattahooch33]

So, I would suggest this work. It is the best brief overview of the battle without getting into all the incorrect minutia that the two main works do.

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series): Kolakowski, Christopher L.: 9781596296725: Amazon.com: Books

The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series) [Kolakowski, Christopher L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Civil War at Perryville: Battling for the Bluegrass (Civil War Series)

www.amazon.com

Well that stinks. Only 192 pages? I like detailed histories at the regimental level, I was especially interested in the 41st Georgia as they are from my hometown. Their captain, who founded the local college was killed there.

 

[Sheltowee]

Well that stinks. Only 192 pages? I like detailed histories at the regimental level, I was especially interested in the 41st Georgia as they are from my hometown. Their captain, who founded the local college was killed there.

Well, until Gunny completes his work, you have essentially Hafendorfer and Noe.

The folks at Perryville Battlefield will recommend Noe- as it is the most recent. And the Hafendorfer book is (I believe) out of print.

Rhea Coke is spot on- come and see, firsthand.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

If the book doesn't have properly formatted footnotes & citations, the author hasn't done his homework… which tells you everything you need to know.

I'm currently reading a non-ACW book in which the author clearly did a bunch of interviews and research, but because he was a journalist and published with a small, independent press the 360+ page book contains zero citations and the bibliographic essay covers a mere page and a half.

It's not garbage, but there are definitely some places where I'm skeptical of the author's lack of critical analysis.

The obvious answer would be "read a better book on the subject" but there literally isn't one. It might be the only book on the subject.

The footnotes and endnotes that I have listed on various pages for the books are - in most cases - do not support the said narrative.

I wonder how often that is a data entry error. The author had a seemingly good source, but it got typed in wrong or forgotten or lost during editing.

With my own ears, I heard Foote reply to a question that, "Southern storytellers never let the facts get in the way of a good story."

I don't think that flaw is limited to any particular region.

 

[gunny]

I wonder how often that is a data entry error. The author had a seemingly good source, but it got typed in wrong or forgotten or lost during editing.

I have no doubt that some of them were just accidental errors, but in many cases, the citations don't even support the narrative that the historian is creating. I say "creating" because they are piecing a story together - without all the pieces. They have to make comprehensive story that may not make sense at all from the sources they are utilizing.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I'm currently reading a non-ACW book in which the author clearly did a bunch of interviews and research, but because he was a journalist and published with a small, independent press the 360+ page book contains zero citations and the bibliographic essay covers a mere page and a half.

It's not garbage, but there are definitely some places where I'm skeptical of the author's lack of critical analysis.

The obvious answer would be "read a better book on the subject" but there literally isn't one. It might be the only book on the subject.



I wonder how often that is a data entry error. The author had a seemingly good source, but it got typed in wrong or forgotten or lost during editing.



I don't think that flaw is limited to any particular region.

Who said anything about a flaw?

 

[Rhea Cole]

'The American Civil War, a Military History.' By John Keegan, 2009. is a book that fits the theme of this thread exactly. Keegan is a brilliant military historian. I have five of his books. His work is enhanced by his brilliant narrative skills. I absolutely recommend his books… except for one.

Exactly how the glaring inaccuracies in Keegan's Civil War narrative ever passed through even a cursory editorial red pencil session is beyond me. How a historian with his well deserved reputation could have messed up that badly is equally unknowable. None of the speculation on how it happened makes any sense to me.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Who said anything about a flaw?

Sacrificing truth for good storytelling, except under the explicit label of fiction, is called lying.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Sacrificing truth for good storytelling, except under the explicit label of fiction, is called lying.

What, exactly, is your position in the Inquisition? The tall pointy hats are very stylish.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

What, exactly, is your position in the Inquisition? The tall pointy hats are very stylish.

We dropped the hats so nobody suspects us.