45-70?

[archieclement]

Not exactly ACW, but we generally stray pre-war/reconstruction a bit, I may have a chance to buy a 1879 trapdoor Springfield carbine. It looks in good shape, is it generally safe to shoot a period trapdoor Springfield? Curious if it would have toy factor, besides wall hanging factor

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Remington's 405 gr. jacketed soft point 45-70 is designed to fire in any any long gun in safe shooting condition that was originally chambered in that caliber.

Edited - Remington does make a full pressure 405 gr. jacket soft point load that is NOT safe to fire in the Trapdoor but the end of the box is marked as such. Here is the box end for the safe, lower pressure Remington 405 gr. JSP loads.

 

[Rebforever]

Not exactly ACW, but we generally stray pre-war/reconstruction a bit, I may have a chance to buy a 1879 trapdoor Springfield carbine. It looks in good shape, is it generally safe to shoot a period trapdoor Springfield? Curious if it would have toy factor, besides wall hanging factor

Let a professional gunsmith give you help. I would not begin to shoot it until then. I have shot 45/70s for years new and old. If a gunsmith says not good enough, the barrel can be lined for a 38/55 which will ease the shoulder pain. The carbine originally used a 45/70 shell but was loaded 45/55 black powder.
I hope it works out ok for you. They are fun to shoot.

 

[uaskme]

If you reload, you could down load to period chamber pressures. Use conventional powders for black powder pressures. 1879 is probably Black Powder. Barrel steels were made harder for jacketed Bullets. It the barrel is a black powder barrel, jacketed bullets will erode it. So, you could down load your ammo and use lead boolits. Grove diameters vary. So getting a cast boolit to shoot would take a little work.

I wouldn't shoot factory jacketed ammo in it. It could mechanical disassemble. I've got a couple of 1893 Marlins in 38/55. One of them is Smokeless the other is Black powder. Do a little research. Might be marked on your barrel.

 

[UCVRelics]

I may have a chance to buy a 1879 trapdoor Springfield carbine.

I see you got shooting question answered. Does it have a saddle ring bar on it?

 

[Copperhead-mi]

If you reload, you could down load to period chamber pressures. Use conventional powders for black powder pressures. 1879 is probably Black Powder. Barrel steels were made harder for jacketed Bullets. It the barrel is a black powder barrel, jacketed bullets will erode it. So, you could down load your ammonia and use lead boolits. Grove diameters vary. So getting a cast boolit to shoot would take a little work.

I wouldn't shoot factory jacketed ammo in it. It could mechanical disassemble. I've got a couple of 1893 Marlins in 38/55. One of them is Smokeless the other is Black powder. Do a little research. Might be marked up n your barrel.

Over the years I've owned a half dozen Trapdoors besides working on quite a few belonging to customer's. The smallest diameter bore I've every encountered on one belonged to me and it was in primo, NRA 95% condition. That one had a bore diameter of .459. Every other one I've slugged and measured had bores ranging between .460 and .462. Remington originally brought out the load I recommended earlier specifically for the Trapdoors that suddenly became plentiful and popular during the late sixties through the seventies. By all means, if one has any concerns, I recommend taking the Trapdoor to a qualified gunsmith for a safety inspection and recommendation of factory manufactured ammunition.

 

[archieclement]

I see you got shooting question answered. Does it have a saddle ring bar on it?

Yes

 

[UCVRelics]

Yes

 

[Tony Z]

Let a professional gunsmith give you help. I would not begin to shoot it until then. I have shot 45/70s for years new and old. If a gunsmith says not good enough, the barrel can be lined for a 38/55 which will ease the shoulder pain. The carbine originally used a 45/70 shell but was loaded 45/55 black powder.
I hope it works out ok for you. They are fun to shoot.

I also have shot .45-70 for over four decades and this is solid advice. I would be wary of firing modern smokeless powder loads until the rifle is examined. If you are a reloader seek out a Lyman reloading manual, as it has a section specific to that rifle (at least through the 43rd edition).

 

[drezac]

Some of the modern load can be very hot. I have a modern Marlin Lever-action 45-70. Some of the modern loads are just plain painful to shoot. you would need to watch what you purchase - although most of the hot modern rounds do have a warning on the box to only fire with newly manufactured guns.
If you handload, trailboss is a great powder in the 45-70. Trailboss was designed for cowboy action shooting and downloading large cartridges. It loads a very fun to shoot round in 45-70. Accurate for Ohio deer ranges ( 25-75 yards). you can't blow up a gun with it, by design it just won't generate high pressures. It's a strange looking powder, looks like small styrofoam doughnuts. It's bulky but light so that it will take up room in the large cartridges.

 

[frontrank2]

I have owned a model 1884 trapdoor rifle since 1983. I prefer to load my own rounds, but in a pinch I have shot the Remington. There is also Black Hills ammo that comes in cowboy loads, but it's not cheap and good luck finding any right now.

 

[CowCavalry]

If you reload, you could down load to period chamber pressures. Use conventional powders for black powder pressures. 1879 is probably Black Powder

1879 would absolutely be in the black powder era.

 

[BillO]

Let a professional gunsmith give you help. I would not begin to shoot it until then. I have shot 45/70s for years new and old. If a gunsmith says not good enough, the barrel can be lined for a 38/55 which will ease the shoulder pain. The carbine originally used a 45/70 shell but was loaded 45/55 black powder.
I hope it works out ok for you. They are fun to shoot.

I'll be, I did not know that the 45/70 loaded 55 grains of powder. So what's the "70" then. case capacity?

 

[CowCavalry]

I'll be, I did not know that the 45/70 loaded 55 grains of powder. So what's the "70" then. case capacity?

I did not know that either but I think he means they had a lighter load for the carbines.

 

[CowCavalry]

Some of the modern load can be very hot. I have a modern Marlin Lever-action 45-70. Some of the modern loads are just plain painful to shoot. you would need to watch what you purchase - although most of the hot modern rounds do have a warning on the box to only fire with newly manufactured guns.
If you handload, trailboss is a great powder in the 45-70. Trailboss was designed for cowboy action shooting and downloading large cartridges. It loads a very fun to shoot round in 45-70. Accurate for Ohio deer ranges ( 25-75 yards). you can't blow up a gun with it, by design it just won't generate high pressures. It's a strange looking powder, looks like small styrofoam doughnuts. It's bulky but light so that it will take up room in the large cartridges.

Years ago back in the 80's before the resurgence of the 45/70 a gunsmith told me that the factory loads were all anemic due to the fact that there were so many old guns chambered for it in existence but that a handloader could make a really stout load for a modern gun. The only modern weapon produced at the time I can think of was the Marlin.

 

[frontrank2]

I'll be, I did not know that the 45/70 loaded 55 grains of powder. So what's the "70" then. case capacity?

70 grains were used in the rifles. 55 grains were used in the carbines, same case just different amounts of powder.

 

[uaskme]

Black powder barrels can't handle jacketed bullets or modern chamber pressures. Black powder barrels can't handle jacketed bullets at reduced pressures. It will erode the rifling.

Can you insert the modern round in the chamber and fire it? Yes. Gun may handle a few rounds or may kaboom the first one.

Some of this specialty cast boolit loaded ammo is for modern lever action rifles. A Marlin has a grove diameter of a few thousands larger than most rifles. This is the primary purpose. Most Cast boolits are a few thousands larger than the jacketed bullet for the same application. Cast has to seal the bore. Jacketed bullets don't have to do that. So, unless it is specifically reduce loaded, chamber pressures are too high.

Relining a barrel is $400 plus. Custom Ammo is expensive, if you reload or not. So, Toy Factor can get expensive.

 

[Rebforever]

I'll be, I did not know that the 45/70 loaded 55 grains of powder. So what's the "70" then. case capacity?

The 70 means grains of powder. When I shoot my best groups were loaded 68.3 grains of black powder.
The 55 grains is loaded with wadding to seat the .405 grain bullet on to fill up the 45/70 shell.

 

[poorjack]

Being a long time fan of the 45-70- here's the facts. An original "Trapdoor", if it's in sound mechanical condition it's safe to shoot with black powder level power loads. Due to barrel steel alloy and bore size, I'd avoid any modern jacketed bullets in it and go back to basics- a cast lead boolit and black powder. The jacket on the modern bullets can possibly cause damage and wear to the bore that a lead boolit would not. Don't damage an irreplaceable original that is otherwise safe to shoot. If you don't "hand load", then I'd seek out ammo set up specifically for the "Trapdoor" and be very cautious about any modern ammunition. Be forewarned, this is seriously addictive.

As for available power levels in the ammo, 45-70s come in a range of action strengths. Lowest strength is the "Trapdoor" and top of the pile is the Ruger #1 and Siamese Mauser. Lever guns are a bit under those two. Modern production Sharps are in a gray zone as they are only proofed for black powder so don't think it's just like a Ruger cuz it's got a falling block. Nor think an original 1886 Winchester is as strong as a modern one due to steel alloy. But on that modern one, don't think it's as strong as a Ruger. As for the Ruger and Mauser, they are both capable of power approaching a 458Winmag with recoil to match. The 45-70 is an amazingly versatile cartridge but it's easy to get into trouble if you don't know what you're doing.

If you are a reloading type, the cartridge can be loaded down to "gallery" level loads for plinking or loaded up to take any critter on this continent and in most of the planet. Even in the "anemic" level Trapdoor loads, the plain 400g or 500g lead bullet will perform far better than what the paper stats would indicate. Paper stats don't cover things like momentum and that heavy, slow bullet will pass right through most game on this continent.

Back to the ACW stuff.

 

[poorjack]

The 70 means grains of powder. When I shoot my best groups were loaded 68.3 grains of black powder.
The 55 grains is loaded with wadding to seat the .405 grain bullet on to fill up the 45/70 shell.

I know a guy who competes in BPCR Silhoutte and Long range matches. He paper patches and puts 82g in the 45-70 case. With compression and seating depth it can be done. And BTW, he's won and placed in a number of matches. I'm using 75g in my 50-70 with minimal compression.