1862 Tower Enfield P1853 help

[REDL1965]

Good morning all.

I purchased an 1862 Tower Enfield P1853 this weekend. The dealer I purchased this from thought it was likely confederate but there is nothing to suggest it is.

Here's what I know:

1. The lock is from Birmingham and the barrel is from London.
2. Caliber is .577 (marked 25 on barrel).
3. No identifiable marks on the stock, trigger guard, etc.
4. Two sets of former owners initials on the gun.

I have thought I would remove the lock and barrel if there are any additional marks/stamps I should look for.

I thought I would see what the experts here can tell me.

Thanks - Rob

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[14NYSM]

I have an 1863 Tower Enfield. They were made for export and used by both sides. There were blockade runners captured and their cargo of Enfields used by the North too. I don't think it would be easy to prove Confederate use. My Tower was made with a hammer that does not quite line up with cone. These guns were not held in high regard by the troops.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I think the reason that seller suggested it might be confederate is the large initials cut into the wood. Most collectors believe this was more common with southerns troops.

 

[UCVRelics]

Welcome, enjoy

Interesting Enfield. Really no way to tell one way or the other on CS with some of the purchasing agents/inspectors marks. Lets see what our Enfield experts have to say. paging @Craig L Barry and @Lanyard Puller

 

[Craig L Barry]

The barrel proof marks are from the London (Worshipful Company of Gunmakers) proof house, vs Birmingham. The proof houses did not cooperate with each other so that barrel does not go with that particular stock and lock plate. Perhaps the barrel is a replacement or the piece was cobbled together from disassociated parts? Nothing about appears to be distinctive in terms of which side might have used it.

 

[14NYSM]

My Tower 1863. I added the sling and original cone protector.

 

[14NYSM]

My Tower 1863. Note the old stock crack and Birmingham proofs.

 

[REDL1965]

I think the reason that seller suggested it might be confederate is the large initials cut into the wood. Most collectors believe this was more common with southerns

I think the reason that seller suggested it might be confederate is the large initials cut into the wood. Most collectors believe this was more common with southerns troops.

I guess that makes sense. Two sets of initials carved into it and I'm sure he was thinking of the 25 marked on the barrel also (not that I'm convinced of the 25 (south), 24 (north) orders).

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I guess that makes sense. Two sets of initials carved into it and I'm sure he was thinking of the 25 marked on the barrel also (not that I'm convinced of the 25 (south), 24 (north) orders).

As you say, the "25 bore" caliber (also known as .577 caliber) was the "official" caliber for confederate Enfields. It was the standard caliber for all the Model 1853 rifle-muskets in the entire world - except some made in 24 bore (aka .58 caliber) on contract for the North.
But both sides used both calibers, and you can't read too much into a particular specimen is 25 or 24 bore.
One of the best marked Model 1853s I've owned has the rarely seen Confederate Viewer's SHC inspector's mark on both wood and metal barrel and a classic "confederate style" name carved large on the stock, but this Model 1853 (pictured in "The English Connection") is in 24 / 24 bore, the so called Union caliber.

 

[Old Soldier]

The TOWER on the lock applied to both Birmingham AND London gunmakers - smaller firms who subcontracted out - so this may well have a London origin. The maker's name appeared on larger, registered exporting gunmakers' lockplates, but these subcontracted ones have the TOWER stamp and were often bought in to make up mumbers. In any case, the mix of origins for barrel and working parts is a fairly common occurence in these civilian weapons. Usually, they have a common area origin, but if you ran short during the manufacturing process, you bought off-the-shelf from a recognised supplier. As with all civilian-made rifles, they will not have any government inspectors marks externally. (There are a few 'sold out of service' (opposing WD arrows -X-) Type 2s that were sold on but these will nearly always have a civilian proof on the barrel and acceptance stamps are often overstamped)

Inside, you MAY get the lockmaker's company stamp, an assembler's mark - usually Is and Vs stamped under the barrel or inside the lockplte and sometimes just on the EDGE of the lockplate. They also appear on the stock inside the ramrod and/or barrel channels. There may be just initials. There is a possibility of government inspector's stamps on minor internal components such as tumbler or bridle. They may have company inspectors marks, usually initials on the inside of the lockplate. The stockmakers stamp may be in the barrel channel towards the breech and the barrel-makers name is often stamped on the underside of the breech as well as numerous inspectors stamps around the breech. The makers names are usually... different.

 

[REDL1965]

Hello All,

Thanks for the info so far that you all have provided on the Enfield I picked up. Tonite I took the lock and barrel off to see what was there and it was a lot, particularly the barrel. I wanted to see what these might mean to the knowledgeable here. Only initials I found was a DW and a SP. The lock has one number and I found out it has a modern replacement spring.

A name is on one of the bands but I can't quite make it out.

Any ideas?

Thanks again folks. I'm glad to have found this group.

 

[Old Soldier]

Hello All,

Thanks for the info so far that you all have provided on the Enfield I picked up. Tonite I took the lock and barrel off to see what was there and it was a lot, particularly the barrel. I wanted to see what these might mean to the knowledgeable here. Only initials I found was a DW and a SP. The lock has one number and I found out it has a modern replacement spring.

A name is on one of the bands but I can't quite make it out.

Any ideas?

Thanks again folks. I'm glad to have found this group.

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The 14.4 suggests a Liege-made barrel (14.4mm). These were often bought in and proofed locally - Birmingham in this case.

 

[REDL1965]

The 14.4 suggests a Liege-made barrel (14.4mm). These were often bought in and proofed locally - Birmingham in this case.

Great info. Looking at the stamping of the P-25-V stamping is from London. Am I mistaken?

 

[Old Soldier]

Yes, it is hard work, but it is there, the '25' is the bore (25-bore = .577") (Sorry, I was looking @14NYSM 's photo.) The 14.4 comment still stands though.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

London proof, yes.
But that doesn't mean London made.
And sometimes, on arms meant to deceive, it means "fake London proofmarks added" - you should see the "proofmarks" added by illiterate Peshawar Valley gunsmiths on the copies they made of various weapons!!!

 

[Old Soldier]

London proof, yes.
But that doesn't mean London made.
And sometimes, on arms meant to deceive, it means "fake London proofmarks added" - you should see the "proofmarks" added by illiterate Peshawar Valley gunsmiths on the copies they made of various weapons!!!

As I said, the 14.4 (mm) suggests it was made in Liege and proofed in London. The other markings on the barrel can probably be traced:

S.P MAY be Pieper; D&W likely to be Drisket & Waroux; (?)&H may be Jeusette & Henrard - all Liege gunmakers.

 

[REDL1965]

That's great info. Thanks for delving into that. I was surprised by all of the markings under the barrel. I also didn't realize how easy these rifles are to take apart.

 

[Old Soldier]

That's great info. Thanks for delving into that. I was surprised by all of the markings under the barrel. I also didn't realize how easy these rifles are to take apart.

It's putting them back together that is the hard bit!

 

[Craig L Barry]

One interesting tidbit about the barrel proofing...Liege had a reciprocal arrangement to have their barrels tested in England and vice versa. Of course the English gunmakers never sent their barrels to Liege to be tested, but the Belgian gunmakers availed themselves of getting barrels tested in England. It made it easier to fob off one of the Liege made P53s as appearing to be produced in England, which then sold for about a 20% higher price. There is additional material on the specifics of the arrangement in one of the Suppliers to the Confederacy books.