1860 Colt (EMF replica) Question

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Oct 28, 2019
Good Day! I've recently acquired an EMF 1860 Colt Army 44 Caliber reproduction, manufactured in 1986. It has Serial Number A50746
I called EMF as they are an importer basically. I spoke to a 20 year customer service person that said the firearm was either an Uberti or Armi San Marco manufacture. However, they were unable to narrow it down any further being from 1986. I am looking to figure out which one this is, if possible. If someone has an EMF 1860 Colt from the 1980's, then maybe the serial numbers could be compared. Of if anyone knows a way to identify either version. I will have the revolver at some point this weekend. I've seen it in the past and other than an AP stamp that signify 1986 manufacture and A50746, I don't believe there are other marks. I could be wrong, so I'm hoping this weekend gets here quickly!! Any thoughts are apprecated.
 
I can't say I know them at all, but online there is a page or two that should tell you by the proof marks. But it being 1980's I'd bet money on it being Armi San Marcos. If you can post a picture of it, it could be helpful ASM's from back then and the 90's tend to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to Uberti's because of what I would call superior case-hardening of the frames.
 
I can't say I know them at all, but online there is a page or two that should tell you by the proof marks. But it being 1980's I'd bet money on it being Armi San Marcos. If you can post a picture of it, it could be helpful ASM's from back then and the 90's tend to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to Uberti's because of what I would call superior case-hardening of the frames.
Thank you! I’ll post pictures as soon as I have it in hand.
 
Good Day! I've recently acquired an EMF 1860 Colt Army 44 Caliber reproduction, manufactured in 1986. It has Serial Number A50746
I called EMF as they are an importer basically. I spoke to a 20 year customer service person that said the firearm was either an Uberti or Armi San Marco manufacture. However, they were unable to narrow it down any further being from 1986. I am looking to figure out which one this is, if possible. If someone has an EMF 1860 Colt from the 1980's, then maybe the serial numbers could be compared. Of if anyone knows a way to identify either version. I will have the revolver at some point this weekend. I've seen it in the past and other than an AP stamp that signify 1986 manufacture and A50746, I don't believe there are other marks. I could be wrong, so I'm hoping this weekend gets here quickly!! Any thoughts are apprecated.

When you have the gun in hand, the date code should be on the bottom of the frame (where it meets the barrel lug). L to R, an equilateral triangle with a stylized ASM inset (ASM logo) should be on the left side, followed by two proof marks, followed by the date code in a rectangle (sometimes these marks are very faint). Below that group will be the serial number. Your S/N with the A prefix is correct for that date. There should also be a rollmarked A.S.M. (sometimes just S.M.) BLACK POWDER ONLY CAL 44 MADE IN ITALY on the lower right side of the barrel above the load lever. If the frame, barrel lug, or cylinder have no proof marks, then it was assembled as a kit gun. I am curious as to where EMF is stamped on the gun: possibly on the bottom of the backstrap.

Uberti either marked the guns as A. UBERTI or with a logo that appears as a muzzle view of an octagonal barrel with a U in the bore; either will be on the left side of the frame where COLTS PATENT would appear on an original 1860.

Italian repro gun frames/hammers/triggers/load levers are not case hardened. They are merely case colored using a topical chemical formula to produce the effect. I find Uberti colors are more vibrant than ASM colors, but I think the ASM colors are more correct compared to the original Colts.

A word of caution if you are not aware of this: DO NOT use any vinegar or acetic/acid fluids to clean the gun. The bluing and case colors will be removed in a New York Minute!

I have an Armi San Marco 1860 Army 4-screw frame cut for shoulder stock, date code BC (1993), S/N E04531. It has both a rebated round engraved cylinder and a rebated full-fluted cylinder.

ASM-1860-Army-Fluted-Cylinder-007.jpg


Regards,

Jim
 
I find Uberti colors are more vibrant than ASM colors, but I think the ASM colors are more correct compared to the original Colts.

I don't know about that, its only until the past two or three years Uberti has straightened there act up. Before that most of their guns have almost no case colors at all and is mostly white metal with a little color here or there, whereas most ASM's I've had had full frame coverage, same with Pietta's. Another note, Colt's tended to have blues and browns, where again until very recently with Uberti, it was all different shades of blues. ASM's are the only one's I've had handy of older ones that had any browns in the coloring.

Heck I still have a Uberti 1851 with almost zero case coloring and is mostly white metal, has been since the day I took it out of the box brand new years ago.
 
When you have the gun in hand, the date code should be on the bottom of the frame (where it meets the barrel lug). L to R, an equilateral triangle with a stylized ASM inset (ASM logo) should be on the left side, followed by two proof marks, followed by the date code in a rectangle (sometimes these marks are very faint). Below that group will be the serial number. Your S/N with the A prefix is correct for that date. There should also be a rollmarked A.S.M. (sometimes just S.M.) BLACK POWDER ONLY CAL 44 MADE IN ITALY on the lower right side of the barrel above the load lever. If the frame, barrel lug, or cylinder have no proof marks, then it was assembled as a kit gun. I am curious as to where EMF is stamped on the gun: possibly on the bottom of the backstrap.

Uberti either marked the guns as A. UBERTI or with a logo that appears as a muzzle view of an octagonal barrel with a U in the bore; either will be on the left side of the frame where COLTS PATENT would appear on an original 1860.

Italian repro gun frames/hammers/triggers/load levers are not case hardened. They are merely case colored using a topical chemical formula to produce the effect. I find Uberti colors are more vibrant than ASM colors, but I think the ASM colors are more correct compared to the original Colts.

A word of caution if you are not aware of this: DO NOT use any vinegar or acetic/acid fluids to clean the gun. The bluing and case colors will be removed in a New York Minute!

I have an Armi San Marco 1860 Army 4-screw frame cut for shoulder stock, date code BC (1993), S/N E04531. It has both a rebated round engraved cylinder and a rebated full-fluted cylinder.

View attachment 335103

Regards,

Jim
Thank you Jim! This is excellent information.
 
Heck I still have a Uberti 1851 with almost zero case coloring and is mostly white metal, has been since the day I took it out of the box brand new years ago.

I guess I stand corrected. I just found a post (on another forum) with photos of an Uberti that was made in the 80's. Although not in the white, it definitely has no case colors on the appropriate parts.

Uberti-1860-Army-1980s.jpg


This what a 2019 Uberti is like (Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon):

Uberti-Whitneyville-001.jpg


Jim
 
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I guess I stand corrected. I just found a post (on another forum) with photos of an Uberti that was made in the 80's. Although not in the white, it definitely has no case colors on the appropriate parts.

Jim

View attachment 335122

Its just how Uberti did things. While quality can be good with them, I tend to prefer ASM and Pietta on that basis alone. I may post a photo later. Nice 1860 BTW, I've thought a lot off and on of getting a fully fluted (why does Pietta flute them like SAA's anyway) one as they were the only one's shipped to Texas before the war started.

Another note, I think what they do is case-hardening just a more modern chemical method instead of the old real method, because just like with the real deal, you DO NOT try to stamp anything on the frame unless, just like with the original real case-hardening, you want a broken stamp.
 
I do not want to hijack this thread, but since the subject of Pietta CC came up, I want to post one more photo insofar as case color guns.

ASM 1860 Army .44

Uberti WH Dragoon .44

Pietta 1851 Navy 2nd Model .36 squareback with part round/part octagon barrel and smooth cylinder (my rendition of what Colt should have produced as a Dragoon .36 belt model pistol, but did not, and Pietta did not do so either as this is a parts gun).

Uberti-Whitneyville-003.jpg


Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Regards,

Jim
 
Jim, you are so knowledgeable and your posts are excellent. I appreciate your willingness to help! Please take over post anytime! -Chris
 
Hi Jim
I do not want to hijack this thread, but since the subject of Pietta CC came up, I want to post one more photo insofar as case color guns.

ASM 1860 Army .44

Uberti WH Dragoon .44

Pietta 1851 Navy 2nd Model .36 squareback with part round/part octagon barrel and smooth cylinder (my rendition of what Colt should have produced as a Dragoon .36 belt model pistol, but did not, and Pietta did not do so either as this is a parts gun).

View attachment 335130

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Regards,

Jim
Hi Jim, ever come across this barrel address in your repro collecting? Thanks and best, John
CED6854A-8D59-4270-A341-17C35963B198.jpeg
 
John,

I have not personally seen this address on a replica, but if it was on an original Colt 1851 Navy it would be known as the Early New York Address. The arrows on either end of the address in your photo are "outlined" whereas the original would have arrows or dashes similar to the hyphen seen between New and York, only longer.

That address on original Colt 1851 Navy pistols is found in the S/N range 1/~74000.

(" '51 Colt Navies", Swayze, 1967)

I am curious as to what the pistol shown is. Do you have other pictures?

Regards,

Jim

Edit: I found the pictures.
 
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John,

I have not personally seen this address on a replica, but if it was on an original Colt 1851 Navy it would be known as the Early New York Address. The arrows on either end of the address in your photo are "outlined" whereas the original would have arrows or dashes similar to the hyphen seen between New and York, only longer.

That address on original Colt 1851 Navy pistols is found in the S/N range 1/~74000.

(" '51 Colt Navies", Swayze, 1967)

I am curious as to what the pistol shown is. Do you have other pictures?

Regards,

Jim

Edit: I found the pictures.
Jim, The address is on what is supposed to be an original Colt M1851 Navy squareback, 2nd model.
However, I’m not sure about that barrel address, hence my question. I wanted to rule out a possible repro and figured you would know. Maybe a later generation Colt barrel? Here is the gun. Thanks Jim, appreciate it.
2247AAA2-7CA7-4808-8D53-53F0D9080CE8.jpeg
F5C21EED-AC91-40A3-87CA-7B63944D0F6B.jpeg
F42A95E9-0EE8-47E7-8B31-E2A14A067B04.jpeg
 
IMO, it is not a repro barrel. I believe you may have the real deal, but...

The load aperture on the barrel lug is a bit shallow, the trigger guard is a bit too short in height, and the trigger is too far forward in relation to the rear of the TG with the hammer down. The frame and cylinder appear to be original, as well as the .36 stamp on the left shoulder of the TG for the serial number range.

All I am going by is photos that I have, and do not have an original in hand.

Maybe it had been repaired by a smith after the ACW?

Regards,

Jim
 
IMO, it is not a repro barrel. I believe you may have the real deal, but...

The load aperture on the barrel lug is a bit shallow, the trigger guard is a bit too short in height, and the trigger is too far forward in relation to the rear of the TG with the hammer down. The frame and cylinder appear to be original, as well as the .36 stamp on the left shoulder of the TG for the serial number range.

All I am going by is photos that I have, and do not have an original in hand.

Maybe it had been repaired by a smith after the ACW?

Regards,

Jim
Thanks for the insights Jim. Regards! John
 
Hi Jim

Hi Jim, ever come across this barrel address in your repro collecting? Thanks and best, John


Yoo Hoo. This might also explain that London-lookin' trigger guard.
Very interesting European Brevette of 1851 Navy, barrel stamped address “Sam’l Colt New York City” with reverse Colt Patent marking at breech

 
See also

and
 
See also

and
Story, thank you for the info
on Colt Brevettes. There are no visible
foreign proof marks, but then some were unmarked. Jonl
 
EMF imported Armi San Marco. Uberti is probably the best (more expensive but you get what you pay for) Pietta is a bit cheaper, but lighter build and parts tend to wear out sooner with heavy use. San Marco went out of business many years ago. Parts should interchange if needed. With Pietta you need to do a bit of clean up and tuning to get best performance. I've seen tiny metal splinters and rough machine marks in some. Easily cleaned up with polishing stones and emery paper.
 
EMF imported Armi San Marco. Uberti is probably the best (more expensive but you get what you pay for) Pietta is a bit cheaper, but lighter build and parts tend to wear out sooner with heavy use. San Marco went out of business many years ago. Parts should interchange if needed. With Pietta you need to do a bit of clean up and tuning to get best performance. I've seen tiny metal splinters and rough machine marks in some. Easily cleaned up with polishing stones and emery paper.

EMF was not the only importer of ASM guns (Replica Arms El Paso TX and Marietta OH, FIE, EIG, and others come to mind).

Yes, Pietta revolvers are less expensive than Uberti revolvers, but they use the same steels. I am not sure what you mean by "lighter build". Pietta also has the weird penchant for marketing non-historical firearms (1851 Navy brass .44's, the so-called "pepperbox", etc.) whereas Uberti guns are much more historically faithful. Uberti revolvers also have the constant problem of poor arbor/arbor recess fit from the factory, whereas Piettas do not. Earlier ASM guns also have a reputation for having softer steel parts so as to wear more quickly, but I have not found that to be the case.

I own all 3 makes so I am not a stranger to them.

Regards,

Jim
 
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