1854 Lorenz question / ID problem

[kotkinjs1]

Hi all, I've got what I think is a model 1854 type 1 Lorenz....needing a couple pieces -- a front band/nosecap and the middle band. While searching for those pieces, I want to make sure I'm looking for the right model. Every m54 Lorenz I see online has the middle band in a completely different place, much much closer to the front band than on mine. Also, the band retaining spring seems to be pointing in the opposite direction on mine. It could be a completely bubba'd stock but I doubt it. Any ideas? Is there a different model Lorenz that I'm missing and, more importantly, does it take the same bands as the model 1854?
Pix of mine then stock internet photos of a regular 1854 for comparison...

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[originalrebelyell]

Nice looking old gun, it looks well used I like it.

 

[WJC]

You might want to leave it 'as is'. It is a nice piece that shows a lot of use, aka character....

 

[Jimklag]

Hi all, I've got what I think is a model 1854 type 1 Lorenz....needing a couple pieces -- a front band/nosecap and the middle band. While searching for those pieces, I want to make sure I'm looking for the right model. Every m54 Lorenz I see online has the middle band in a completely different place, much much closer to the front band than on mine. Also, the band retaining spring seems to be pointing in the opposite direction on mine. It could be a completely bubba'd stock but I doubt it. Any ideas? Is there a different model Lorenz that I'm missing and, more importantly, does it take the same bands as the model 1854?
Pix of mine then stock internet photos of a regular 1854 for comparison...

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Welcome, @kotkinjs1 . Our members will help you with everything you need.

 

[Craig L Barry]

You are right to question if the stock is complete, although the back half of it looks like your garden variety 1854 Austrian rifle. If you pull the bottom barrel band, is the forestock pieced in? I suspect that it might be. The forestock resembles a US model. As the images you provided suggest, the Lorenz forestock had the middle band much closer to the top band (which is really there mostly to retain the ramrod) and the middle band spring is behind the band, not in front of it.

I am a "leave it as is" proponent, for one reason the conventional 1854 Austrian bands are not going to work well or fit properly with forestock set-up in the images.

 

[UCVRelics]

Very nice old war horse keep it as found!

 

[originalrebelyell]

Where did you get it its interesting. You can see its been used quite a bit.

 

[originalrebelyell]

Where did you get it its interesting. You can see its been used quite a bit.

Have you had the barrel band off and checked for a splice in the stock

 

[originalrebelyell]

That is a interesting old musket one to hang on the wall to look at, and think about where all it has been.

 

[kotkinjs1]

Thank you for the info so far. More detail: the barrel is 37.25". Oval front sight base. Measured the muzzle though, over .54 but less than .71. The buttstock has a raised cheek like a normal type 1 Lorenz m54.


The stock/forend does seem to be all one piece although there is definitely a crack under the rear barrel band. There was a lot of very old glue keeping the band secure. The band is not original to the stock due to the placement of the holes for the retaining spring. There isn't really any play when the barrel is seated in the stock. Maybe it's just a wartime repair using some other modified stock?

More photos below...

 

[originalrebelyell]

Looks like the forearm has been broke and repaired at one time. That is a interesting old musket if only it could talk.

 

[originalrebelyell]

I hope you can find some bands to fit it

 

[Don Dixon]

I'm going to venture the opinion that this firearm is a "frankenmusket."

If you compare the cheek piece with that of a standard Muster 1854 rifle, the shape is somewhat wrong. And, as noted, the placement of the second band and band spring on the forehand is not where it would normally be found on a standard Muster 1854 forehand. Having said that, most of the currently present metal bits are from a Muster 1854. But, look at the mounting of the hammer [particularly the piece around the hammer screw ] to the lockplate. That also is not the standard mount for the Muster 1854.

Two possibilities then may exist:

The Confederates were noted for cobbling pieces of salvaged weapons and new parts together to make a serviceable firearm; witness the Tyler, TX, "Austrian" rifles. That the weapons appears to have been bored out to .633 inches [now smoothbore?] works against that conclusion.

That it was reworked/restocked as a fouling piece post-war by some rural gunsmith working with parts that were at hand. I would tend to favor this conclusion.

Regards,
Don Dixon