1840 cavalry sabre

[26Intrepid]

I'm heading this am to pick-up a WW2 P08 that I'm purchasing. The sellers father passed and selling off most of his WW2 and Civil war collection. Besides the sword I'm inquiring about, he's also selling a Tiffany & Co. sword and a C&J sword (All 3 appear to be 1840's). The Tiffany is in pretty good condition,,, just missing some of the twine on the handle. The leather on the handle of the C&J is totally gone, only thing that remains is the twine. Both of these swords I believe to be originals… I don't know how much he wants for them yet.

Now… the Ames sword… my head is saying reproduction… but I think it's just been buffed and overly cleaned. Thoughts? If original, is it worth pursuing? It's the nicest of the 3… collector value might be gone, but it's still a part of history if original.

 

[26Intrepid]

If anybody is curious about the other 2 swords… here's a couple pics. I would be open to purchase depending on price of course.

 

[bayonet]

That AMES looks way too clean so it's either a reproduction or that blade was polished way too much. The Tiffany looks legit but the handle needs restoration, Tom Nardi could fix that at a fair price. In that condition made a few hundred, in better condition with the handle & wire all there $1200. Not sure on the other but it too needs serious handle restoration. Of course their are others here that disagree and buy plus display it that condition (each's own).

 

[26Intrepid]

No… I 100% agree with what you're saying. This is the reason why it would have to be a very good price in order for me to purchase any of them. The Ames I think is legit… why somebody would do that to an antique? Only thing is with the Ames… I look at it thinking… that's what it looked like when new. Once again… it would have to be a fantastic price.

Thank you for your post.
D

 

[bayonet]

No… I 100% agree with what you're saying. This is the reason why it would have to be a very good price in order for me to purchase any of them. The Ames I think is legit… why somebody would do that to an antique? Only thing is with the Ames… I look at it thinking… that's what it looked like when new. Once again… it would have to be a fantastic price.

Thank you for your post.
D

Reproductions/replicas are made for reenactors. Not saying it is but it looks too clean and the AMES stamping look to new. But that's just me. Others more knowledgeable here can jump in if their available.

 

[bobinwmass]

The Ames saber looks legit to me. Someone took one that still had a very nice blade and then buffed/polished blade, hilt, and scabbard. Maybe they thought making it look new would increase the value, maybe they didn't care and just wanted it to be pretty. When I bought my Ames saber (1850 date) over twenty years ago, the same thing had been done to it. I still wanted it due the Massachusetts marking on the hilt showing it may have been used by the 1st Mass. Cavalry Regiment (per Thillmann's book). Only now are the hilt and scabbard getting just a bit of age toning back.

 

[JackADriscoll]

As a collector if I found one that pretty at a good price I'd probably get it and keep it that nice. It would be indicative of how it looked issued on day one and that's pretty neat. Let us know how you make out

 

[bayonet]

The Ames saber looks legit to me. Someone took one that still had a very nice blade and then buffed/polished blade, hilt, and scabbard. Maybe they thought making it look new would increase the value, maybe they didn't care and just wanted it to be pretty. When I bought my Ames saber (1850 date) over twenty years ago, the same thing had been done to it. I still wanted it due the Massachusetts marking on the hilt showing it may have been used by the 1st Mass. Cavalry Regiment (per Thillmann's book). Only now are the hilt and scabbard getting just a bit of age toning back.

Any idea what that stamped marking is going downwards between the last two date #s between the 4 and the last digit you can't make out? Yeah guess I have a ACW era sword that the hilt is nicely aged but someone polished the heck out of the blade. I display it in the scabbard so you only see it if you draw it.

 

[26Intrepid]

Thanks all for your comments… I'm meeting with the seller tomorrow. I want to know how much for each.. if the price is cheap I will add to my collection, regardless of its condition, but only if the price is too good to pass up. Thanks for the comments.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Thanks all for your comments… I'm meeting with the seller tomorrow. I want to know how much for each.. if the price is cheap I will add to my collection, regardless of its condition, but only if the price is too good to pass up. Thanks for the comments.

What's your number?

 

[26Intrepid]

If I purchased either (or all) I wouldn't repair them, I would just leave them as I bought them. My take is, if the handle was repaired… then it wouldn't be an original piece (all original anyways). Some collectors like them as they're found, repairing the handle could devalue the piece for some collectors. I've seen swords in similar condition sell for $500 plus… it would take a figure less than that for me to buy. I'd rather invest my money in a decent piece than one of this nature., but this is only my opinion as a collector.

 

[26Intrepid]

I'm back home now.

The P08 I went for is beautiful! The swords were decent… he hasn't done his research yet and doesn't know what they're worth. He will get back to me when he knows… I did explain that the "Ames" is the nicest looking one (In my opinion), but probably the least favored by a collector. I agree with Jack… I would buy that one if it works out.

The seller was very nice… he brought a few other items in case I was interested in the future. I was like a kid in a candy store! M1 Garand, M1 carbine, K98 Mauser, etc…. Anyways… a good day for me and could be better in days to come.

 

[R. Porter]

I have an Ames that looks more attractive than the one displayed here but dated 1845, with scabbard. Definitely way over cleaned, but it was cheap for an 1845 and probably my one chance to afford one. It really stands out like a sore thumb among my other swords but it is real and can be used to compare with other swords for blade dimensions and hilt design. It has turned out to have been half the price of a number of other swords without scabbards in very uncleaned condition that I have bought over the years.

The C&J sword has tool marks on the ricasso (from a vise?) indicating the blade and hilt have been separated at some time. I don't know if the blade and hilt belong together. The three initials look like an inspector's stamp but are in the wrong place for an inspector's stamp on a pommel. I have never heard of an inspector's stamp on a C&J cavalry sword so I suppose it's possible they could be owner's initials. I am separated from my references so I am unable to see if this is a typical C&J hilt or the marriage of a C&J blade to, say, an Ames hilt or if these could be inspector initials. A Frankensword could be a wartime modification or one from later.

The Tiffany sword is one I've seen in a wide range of prices. I've seen them offered for large and small amounts, so if the price on this one seems high and you really want one, hold back and wait for something cheaper.

As always, my disclaimer is that I am not an expert. It's easy to be lead astray, especially when looking at photos online, so use your gut feeling on why you want something and what you can afford. There will always be another one down the road apiece.

 

[26Intrepid]

Yes sir… I 100% agree with you! I do this as a hobby… I don't need anything, I only buy things if I really want them. Price for me dictates the sale (and of course condition). Thank you for your comment! I'm probably going to pass on the Tiffany and C&J…. I always like to hear peoples take on pieces I have limited knowledge of.

Yes, I saw the vice marks too. I'm thinking that somebody used a vice in order to remove the handle for repair? Apparently, if this is true, they didn't use anything between the vice grips to protect the blade.

 

[Glen_C]

The Ames looks like a reproduction, going by the markings. http://www.relicman.com/weapons/Weapon6510-Sword-Cavalry-Model-1840-Ames-1846.html

 

[bobinwmass]

It's true the 1846 dated sabers (link the one your link goes too) were stamped "N.P. AMES", but in 1847 the stamping changed to "AMES MFG. CO". The saber in question does not appear to be an 1846. While you can't make out the final digit, the small curve you do see looks like it could be from a "9". You can see the stamping on my 1850 dated saber also has the same spacing and letter characteristics, a noticeable one being the "V" and "I" meeting at the top, and the "I" looking like the numeral 1.

 

[R. Porter]

Yes sir… I 100% agree with you! I do this as a hobby… I don't need anything, I only buy things if I really want them. Price for me dictates the sale (and of course condition). Thank you for your comment! I'm probably going to pass on the Tiffany and C&J…. I always like to hear peoples take on pieces I have limited knowledge of.

Yes, I saw the vice marks too. I'm thinking that somebody used a vice in order to remove the handle for repair? Apparently, if this is true, they didn't use anything between the vice grips to protect the blade.

I've seen vise marks on a number of other swords both on the blade ricasso and elsewhere. I've also seen other tool marks, usually on the hilt.

 

[R. Porter]

It's true the 1846 dated sabers (link the one your link goes too) were stamped "N.P. AMES", but in 1847 the stamping changed to "AMES MFG. CO". The saber in question does not appear to be an 1846. While you can't make out the final digit, the small curve you do see looks like it could be from a "9". You can see the stamping on my 1850 dated saber also has the same spacing and letter characteristics, a noticeable one being the "V" and "I" meeting at the top, and the "I" looking like the numeral 1.

View attachment 514673

Checking the manufacturer's stamp for wear can also suggest swords that were made, or at least stamped, relatively close together. The Boker stamp developed a problem on the right side of the letter "o" making it look like a letter "c". I have wondered if this could be used as a pseudo serial number helping to identify swords issued to a particular group of units.

 

[bayonet]

It's true the 1846 dated sabers (link the one your link goes too) were stamped "N.P. AMES", but in 1847 the stamping changed to "AMES MFG. CO". The saber in question does not appear to be an 1846. While you can't make out the final digit, the small curve you do see looks like it could be from a "9". You can see the stamping on my 1850 dated saber also has the same spacing and letter characteristics, a noticeable one being the "V" and "I" meeting at the top, and the "I" looking like the numeral 1.

View attachment 514673

Could be Bob could be....but his looks like it was stamped yesterday, his is stamped more to the left and yours to the right (that might not be an issue depending on the tool or the multiple individuals doing the stamping), and again what are those marks going down to the right of the 4 (don't look like vise markings)?

 

[bobinwmass]

Could be Bob could be....but his looks like it was stamped yesterday, his is stamped more to the left and yours to the right (that might not be an issue depending on the tool or the multiple individuals doing the stamping), and again what are those marks going down to the right of the 4 (don't look like vise markings)

Could be Bob could be....but his looks like it was stamped yesterday, his is stamped more to the left and yours to the right (that might not be an issue depending on the tool or the multiple individuals doing the stamping), and again what are those marks going down to the right of the 4 (don't look like vise markings)?

I don't know what caused the marks you mentioned, but it is possible the blade was removed at one time, perhaps for all that buffing. You can see the pommel cap and tang have had some banging done to them. You can see mine is more relatively smooth.

But I have no doubt those Ames markings on the blade and the inspector initials on the pommel cap are done with the correct dies. It just looks like his saber has a very strong stamping and has seen little use. You can see mine is pretty strong on one side but showing more wear at the bottom, I think from going in and out of scabbard. But my saber saw more use, and the blade was period sharpened. The regimental history of the 1st Mass. Cavalry says they "ground their blades as sharp as possible ".