Collecting Confederate Currency

Thanks for those. I'll try to get my 2 out later today (going to be 102 degrees, I'm staying inside today ;-) ), a try to get a decent pic or scan to compare. I'm guessing you're right that there will turn out to be more than 3 variations.

You wouldn't have any recommends for a book or article on how the plates were made/put together? Back in the day I had some printing/litho/engraving in art classes at university, but that was so long ago and not really translatable to currency production. Maybe I'm just getting cabin fever but it seems like it might help me better understand how the varieties came about and which ones might be significant and which ones "forgettable".

This is a quick mash-up of Bur Oak's two and my two T-50 backs.... not sure what we can learn from this tiny sample. Other than, I wish I could go to a big show someday and look at a whole bunch of notes! ;-). This pic might not be enlargeable enough on a small screen to be of any help though. I can see two different "banner" endings near "THE" and "ICA" and the 50 medallions aren't always centered on the lattice design. Do they rate as "varieties" or just 1860's printing tech variations (probably). Maybe why nobody has spent much time trying to catalog them... oh well. (the good thing about this is I haven't been shopping on the 'bay this afternoon LOL)

BillH said:

You wouldn't have any recommends for a book or article on how the plates were made/put together?

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Wish I did, I'd like to know myself.

With regard to the T-50 backs, judging by the slight shift in position of elements like the "50" markers and the central design relative to the geometric background, it seems likely that at least two images were combined. How they didn't overlap, at least partially, is evidently due to something in the process that I am clueless about. My only understanding of lithography comes from having seen something on TV once, and I remember very little of that.

I've seen evidence that suggests that plates for the front of T-50s were altered and used to print T-57s. If so, I'd like to know how they did that.

With T-50s having been printed four to a sheet, it's logical that the back plate also had four positions. It's probably a good idea to couple the back variations that are detectable with the plate position indicated on the front of the notes.

As predicted, it is indeed 102 degrees outside today, and I have been inside reading some of the past conversations we've had (keeps me and my PayPal OFF the 'bay). And I had a thought, and a story for y'all...

I know graded/slabbed notes aren't everyone's best idea or preferred purchase, but a habit I've gotten into esp for PMG items on the 'bay is to verify the slab registration number and check both pictures "just in case". The story? Some time back, I found what looked to be a very nice note from a seller I had purchased from a couple times years ago but not lately. Thought about it for a couple days and checked the ad again and still liked it (it would have been an upgrade) so I hit the Buy It Now button. Later that evening I was looking at the pictures again and something just seemed "off" so I wrote down the verification/registration number and went over to PMG, plugged it in, got the note up and immediately realized the picture of the back label was different from the picture the seller used on his listing... it had been edited so the comment was removed ("tears" if I'm remembering it correctly). I immediately sent the seller a message, with photographs, and he quickly refunded and cancelled the sale and the listing. I immediately removed his name from my "trusted sellers" list. No, I didn't notify eBay, there are just too many of them to go after (years ago I tried going after some of the fake Mont Blanc sellers... eBay was no help and they were like cockroaches, step on one and 5 more come out of the wall).

Moral of the story? Of course, learn as much as you can, and use whatever tools you can find. PMG graded notes are easily verified on their website... if you have a question or a suspicion, check it out. And if you think something is wonky, pass it by. OR make a collection of them like Bur Oak has done ;-). (just joshin' ya!)

There appears to be differences in the images on post #1802 . Go to the 0 in the left 50, then up and right to 2 o'clock. The lattice work that you first encounter is different on several of the images.One of the "bars" of the lattice work is even missing just left of the "d" in Confederate on two of them.

Bur Oak said:

I've seen evidence that suggests that plates for the front of T-50s were altered and used to print T-57s. If so, I'd like to know how they did that.

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Your comment reminded me...

While watching the CSA note auction on Heritage this evening I was reading some of the descriptions of the lots and remember one that said the plate for whatever type we were looking at had been given to the printer from a bank that had used it for their own issue of a note... before the closed and no longer needed the plate. Only paying half attention, I don't remember which note it was, but since I bailed on the auction for my wife's wonderful dinner, it was one of the first half hour or so's lot, a type probably under T-30. Tomorrow while she's at garden club I'll try to figure out which note and learn a little more.

I'd love to know more about how they did that as well. (still looking for a book about producing late 19th century currency too)

OK, here's what I saw:

T23 $10 1861 PF-1 Cr. 153 PCGS Very Fine 20 Apparent.
Leggett, Keatinge & Ball repurposed a plate donated by the Farmers and Mechanics Bank of Savannah at the beginning of the war to print this note. The plate carried the bank's previous name, which had changed in December 1859, and was therefore of no use to the bank at the time it was donated. Only 20,333 notes were issued before production was inexplicably stopped.

BillH said:

OK, here's what I saw:

T23 $10 1861 PF-1 Cr. 153 PCGS Very Fine 20 Apparent.
Leggett, Keatinge & Ball repurposed a plate donated by the Farmers and Mechanics Bank of Savannah at the beginning of the war to print this note. The plate carried the bank's previous name, which had changed in December 1859, and was therefore of no use to the bank at the time it was donated. Only 20,333 notes were issued before production was inexplicably stopped.

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I believe this plate also included a $5 note which became the T-32.

@Bur Oak - without getting too familiar here, I recall a few months ago you mentioned retiring in 3 months. How close are you now, or have you made the break already? I want to wish you a very happy retirement sir!! I'm 11 years in and it has been pretty wonderful. I pray that you will be able to say the same thing about yours as well, 11 years from now. Best regards sir.

BillH said:

@Bur Oak - without getting too familiar here, I recall a few months ago you mentioned retiring in 3 months. How close are you now, or have you made the break already? I want to wish you a very happy retirement sir!! I'm 11 years in and it has been pretty wonderful. I pray that you will be able to say the same thing about yours as well, 11 years from now. Best regards sir.

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Thursday was my last day. Friday, Saturday and Sunday were my usual days off, so today is day one. Thanks for the good wishes.

Pollaco said:

There appears to be differences in the images on post #1802 . Go to the 0 in the left 50, then up and right to 2 o'clock. The lattice work that you first encounter is different on several of the images.One of the "bars" of the lattice work is even missing just left of the "d" in Confederate on two of them.

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I had been looking mostly from 9 to 11 o'clock. The differences at 2 o'clock are easier to see. Great call, Pollaco!

I just looked through my collection. I currently have five T-50 notes, and every back is different. Four match the images posted above. The fifth has a very short portion of the "bar" visible, but the "50" marker is very close to the lattice, touching it slightly above the bar.

If we use Pollaco's description of having or lacking a "bar," and adding the distance to the nearby portion of the lattice that descends from left to right, I suggest for the purpose of this discussion, labeling the varieties as follows ("V" for "variety."):
V-1 = no bar, close
V-2 = no bar, space
V-3 = with bar, close
V-4 = with bar, far
V-5 = with bar, touches

Noting the plate letters on the front of each, those in my collection are:
V-1 = YA
V-2 = XA
V-3 = ZA
V-4 = XA
V-5 = WA

That may give us an indication why nobody has finished figuring out how all the variations on the backs work out. Seems like a daunting task!

There's a great opportunity on eBay right now for me to add to my misauthenticated slabbed note collection. Someone has listed an SF-36/278 in a PCGS Banknote holder. This would be a "Stolen & Forged" note considered counterfeit. Tremmel, in his book on counterfeits, does not list any stolen forged notes for Type 36. The signatures are right for the serial number according to Thian's book, and they appear to be a good match to signatures on notes known to be genuine. Lacking any evidence to back up the claim that this is an "SF" example, I'd bet the note is genuine.

The only trouble is, the seller wants $750. If genuine, the thing is worth maybe around $75. To quote a line from King Arthur in Monty Python and the Holy Grail...,
"Run away, run away...."

Nice catch. I would have blasted by that listing (and obviously did LOL). I often wonder if the grading companies just "take your word for it" when you write the description/identification of each note on the submission form? As opposed to the advice you always give (and Mr Fricke as well), i.e. "identify and grade the note yourself"... perhaps the paid graders rely too heavily on the ID the owner writes on the order line? They are likely under a serious time consideration for each note they handle. Not an excuse, just an explanation.
(Amanda has a couple listed on eBay. Spendy. Glad they aren't on my "gotta have-it" list.)

BillH said:

... I often wonder if the grading companies just "take your word for it" when you write the description/identification of each note on the submission form? ... perhaps the paid graders rely too heavily on the ID the owner writes on the order line? They are likely under a serious time consideration for each note they handle. Not an excuse, just an explanation.

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I've wondered the same thing. There are a couple of notes in my collection of screw-ups (posted earlier in this thread) that are easily identifiable counterfeits slabbed as genuine. Either they blindly go along with info supplied by the submitter, or they clearly lack the expertise to authenticate these notes. In either case, the results are inexcusable. Some people rely on their opinions as gospel, and that can and does create problems. If they are going to pass themselves off as authenticators, they need to take the time to get it right.

BillH said:

(Amanda has a couple listed on eBay. Spendy. Glad they aren't on my "gotta have-it" list.)

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Just a personal opinion, I rarely, if ever*, agree with her grading, and the prices she asks based on her grades are rarely, if ever*, a bargain. I purchased one note from her many many years ago. None since. She got snarky with me once, which wasn't her best move. But, even putting that aside, I've not seen anything I would be tempted to buy at her prices. If I'm ever in the mood for a good laugh, I can go to her website and browse.

(*For "rarely, if ever," read "never.")

I will be slowing down in adding to the collection, if not indeed trimming it a bit, but I did just add one more.