Griswold Ser#2714 - real or fake???

In the past, I have posted pictures of some items from my friend's collection. Today, I will post a bunch of pictures of his "Griswold", which he bought cheaply (on the scale of Griswold prices) years ago from an estate sale up here in Canada. He showed it to me a couple years ago, when my knowledge of Civil War firearms was really basic, so I didn't understand the significance of what he was showing me. Anyhow, he recently mentioned it again and it really caught my attention (to say the least).

I contacted Lanyard Puller and asked him about fakes, and he suggested I post some pictures. Obviously, one can't make an official assessment of whether its real/fake just based on photos, but its a good starting point. Anyhow, last night I was over at my friend's place (I needed advice on repairing some items, including my cracked Enfield stock...see my recent post) and I took a gazillion photos of the "Griswold", and I figured the Forum would just luuuuuuuuuv to see the pics and weigh in on whether its real or not.

Before going to his place, I read some basic articles on how to spot a fake Griswold, so I scrutinized the gun heavily. A few things in its favour as being real was:

• the colour of the brass frame...its definitely the bronz-ier look, not the yellowy brass.
• Serial numbers, Roman Numerals, and other markings all over the place and in the places you would expect, including the "cryptics" which to me looks like a bit of a weird "L" shape.
• lots of machining/filing and casting marks inside the metal handgrip frame
• the octagon shape of the rear portion of the barrel is consistent with its serial # range
• the backstrap has the distinctive curve

A few things suggesting it might be fake:

• I did not see the twist pattern in the cylinder, but I don't know exactly what it would look like and the cylinder has a lot of pitting
• no twist pattern in the barrel (supposedly sometimes seen in a Griswold)

The wooden handgrips are not original, so don't judge based on that.

So, without much further delay....cuz I know you are absolutely dying to see the pictures...here are a bunch. I have many more, so if there is a particular angle or component you would like to see, just ask...I probably have a picture of it (except for the internals like the "hand", trigger spring, etc).

Still wanting more?????

You guys are insatiable!!

This last photo is an attempt to show the colour difference between the "Griswold" brass and the brass of a Colt Navy.

I'm not qualified to give a proper answer but I enjoyed looking at the pictures and look forward to what the experts have to say.

Yup, we all love looking at the pictures on this Forum. Can't wait to here from the likes of Lanyard Puller and the others that are far more knowledgeable than I. Unfortunately, I always got the sense that there seems to be less activity on the Forum during the weekends, so we might be waiting a while.

Looks like quite a nice piece!

Nice photos. Thanks.

Hey thanks, glad you are all enjoying the pictures as much as I enjoyed posting them.

It looks nice, it feels nice.....but is it real??? My friend thinks it is, and hopes it is cuz he could use the money he'd make selling it ...he is not a wealthy collector at all, but he has been collecting for years (within his modest means) and has picked up some interesting stuff over the years. 1.5 years ago he picked up a Japanese EDITED: flintlock matchlock that dated back the mid 1500's for about $750 US, restored it, and its worth upwards of $3,000 apparently.

Re is it real .... I have also seen a fake Colt Walker (no, my friend doesn't own that, but there's a guy who displays it at local gun shows as a real Walker), so I know there's fake stuff out there. Plus, I read somewhere that the Griswold is the most faked revolver.

If it is real, then I am truly lucky to have held a Griswold, made the cylinder go "click-click-click" as I rotated the cylinder at half-cock, brought it to full cock and sighted down the barrel, etc, etc. Only 3,600 ever made, and as Confederate as the Rebel Yell. If it isn't real, well at least it was interesting to try and find out if it was real and to share the story here on the Forum.

Still waiting for the experts...tap tap tap....

Canuck,

Thanks for posting all of those pics!! I am not an expert by any means but am quite a fancier of G&G revolvers.

I would like to make some comments about #2714:

ConfederateCanuck said:

• the colour of the brass frame...its definitely the bronz-ier look, not the yellowy brass.
• Serial numbers, Roman Numerals, and other markings all over the place and in the places you would expect, including the "cryptics" which to me looks like a bit of a weird "L" shape.
• lots of machining/filing and casting marks inside the metal handgrip frame
• the octagon shape of the rear portion of the barrel is consistent with its serial # range
• the backstrap has the distinctive curve

A few things suggesting it might be fake:

• I did not see the twist pattern in the cylinder, but I don't know exactly what it would look like and the cylinder has a lot of pitting
• no twist pattern in the barrel (supposedly sometimes seen in a Griswold)

Click to expand...

The Roman numerals are chiseled into the metal on the side(s) of the trigger guard and backstrap under the wood. These (XXV) marks are in range as no specimens have been found greater than 30 (XXX). This is the first example I have seen pics of that show Roman numerals on external surfaces (frame, barrel lug, and trigger guard). These are assembly marks, and I believe the "L" is an inspector mark.

The partial serial "14" on the trigger guard is correct.

The grip angle appears to have the butt downturned at the bottom rear of the backstrap, when it should be upturned and look like someone used the gun as a hammer.

The trigger guard bow appears to be too shallow, even allowing that it is bent.

The twist lines on the cylinder (running from the left down to the right as viewed from the rear) are not always apparent, but I have no knowledge of twist lines on a barrel.

The serial number fonts appear to be authentic, although there is usually a S/N on the cylinder.

It surely is not an Italian replica, but I don't have the expertise to say whether it is completely authentic or whether it has replacement parts.

I find it remarkable that a relatively old man (in the day) could produce over 3600 revolvers using a converted cotton gin/pike factory purportedly using 24 workmen, 22 of whom were slaves.

BTW, I copied and saved all of your photos in a separate folder for my use and reference.

It looks VERY good to me.

Thanks again for sharing!

Regards,

Jim

Here a link from another forum about Walker fakes possibly made by a gunsmith in Colorado in the 1920's. Interesting!

https://www.coltforum.com/forums/co...rs/360139-early-american-revolvers-fakes.html

Jim

Thanks for posting this. Really nice pics, and I do hope it's "real". If not, it looks like a durn good fake. I hope the experts pop in soon, I'd like more info, I enjoy learning new things.

Sourdough...do you have any knowledge about the "cryptics"? Symbols (other than Roman numerals) that appeared in various places on the Griswolds? What the symbols look like? Typical placement?

I had read about them in this article (which I get the sense was written many years ago):
http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Confederate-firearms-B089_Foster.pdf

Sorry, I posted the wrong article. This is the correct one:
http://americansocietyofarmscollect...ication-of-Confederate-handguns-B049_Gary.pdf

Another day, in another post, I will post my pictures of the fake Walker I have seen here in Canada. Sadly, it's an obvious fake cuz the serial number is well-known (#1007) which is a rusted out relic that was found buried next to a tree stump in Minnesota, I believe. The fake cannot be a restored version of the rusted relic....the rusted relic was in really bad shape.

IMHO its a very early repop. There are way to many markings on this one in place they should've be a no markings in place there should be. I don't see any of the cryptics marks either the AA the B or the (&) which if I remember right was on the 1st model.

ConfederateCanuck said:

Sourdough...do you have any knowledge about the "cryptics"? Symbols (other than Roman numerals) that appeared in various places on the Griswolds? What the symbols look like? Typical placement?

I had read about them in this article (which I get the sense was written many years ago):
http://americansocietyofarmscollect.../2015/07/Confederate-firearms-B089_Foster.pdf

Click to expand...

To address your second topic, I downloaded the Foster .pdf file and he speaks of primarily long arms, and very little about revolvers, which is your primary concern here, and gets into few specifics as it is taken from a short lecture.

From my research (which is not professional at all), William (Bill) Gary of the Texas Gun Collector Association has this to say (paraphrased):

A cryptic marks is a letter of the alphabet stamped either normally or backward and sometimes doubled. Marks such as R, L, J, Q, GG, and other letters are found on the bottom of the barrel just behind the load lever catch, the rear of the cylinder between the nipples, the rear of the frame to the right side of the hammer, and on the side of the backstrap and the front strap of the trigger guard.

The "L" on #2714 fits nicely within these parameters, even the scrartched-in "L" on two other parts.

On some of the very early models a 4-dot arrangement resembling a 4-leaf clover appears instead of a serial number.

Reference books are not cheap, worth their weight in revolvers, and will save folks from buying spurious guns at exhorbitant prices.

I have 4 good reference books about Confederate revolvers, and I would urge you to obtain them if possible to answer your questions about #2714:

"Confederate Revolvers", William A. Gary, 1987

"The Confederate Brass-Framed Colt and Whitney", William A. Albaugh III, 1955

"Confederate Handguns", Albaugh, Benet, Simmons, 1963

"Confederate Arms", Albaugh, Simmons, 1957

I hope this helps you folks.

I really like that gun.

All I can afford on SS are Italian replicas at a rate of one per year. I can look, fondle, and shoot them with no harm to an authentic one and fantasize that it is the real thing.



Regards,

Jim

ucvrelics said:

IMHO its a very early repop. There are way to many markings on this one in place they should've be a no markings in place there should be. I don't see any of the cryptics marks either the AA the B or the (&) which if I remember right was on the 1st model.

Click to expand...

Any easy test is to see if the screw threads are metric or not.

Jim

I'll let the experts decide

I've been looking around the Internet. Rock Island has an auction on a Griswold, but the L's are backwards.....hmmmm. Could be a strike against my friend's "Griswold".....dunno. Definitely gotta wait for the experts, who seem to have taken the weekend off (hahaha).

Re the screws, the Griswold screws are supposed to be unique on the threaded end, but I don't know in what way. That's why I posted the picture of 3 of the screws.