Dahlgren's raid Controversy

[KeyserSoze]

Keyser Soze,
Robert E. Lee said that few people would do better as President of the Confederacy than Davis. Davis had in fact to create a nation, much like Washington. And his task was even more difficult, since Washington first won the war and then created the nation. Davis had to do them simultaneously.
Civil War Scholar.

Jefferson Davis was a thin skinned individual who was incapable of compromise and unable to lead all the various parts of the Confederacy. He tried to micro-manage the war, to disastrous results, and was with one exception unwilling to trust his generals to do what they needed to do. He ignored his constitution at will and consolidated power into a central government to an extent never dreamed of by Lincoln. He was a terrible choice to lead the Confederacy, and his only saving grace was that all the other choices were eve worse. Compared to Lincoln he was a disaster in every way.

 

[unionblue]

To All,

What was the original topic of this thread? Something to do with Dahlgrens raid, was it not?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[Lincoln65]

Lincoln 65… you state " Lincoln gave Dahlgren thousands of flyers to distribute to the people of Virginia, proclaiming general amnesty if rebels would put down their arms."
I've never heard not seen proof of these flyers… have any of them survived?
What sources have you to show that Lincoln himself gave thes 'flyers' to Dahlgren himself?

I remember reading this from Bruce Catton's Civil War (which is all three books of his Army of the Potomac trilogy in one) and Shelby Foote. But if you want sources, here's what I got from a quick search on the internet. http://www.mdgorman.com/Written_Accounts/Books/kilpatricks.htm

 

[Lincoln65]

It may was Stanton's work or Lincoln's. Jefferson Davis would always remain a threat for the Union president, even when the Union won the war. In the mind of Southern people, he was a symbol. Having him killed would add flame to the fire, but the South would have lost one of her great voices. It would do the US President more good than harm. Finally, President Davis belonged in the categories of Confederate people (Army generals and Congressmen) that would not gain amnesty. Think of it.
Civil War Scholar.

I disagree. I have no doubt in my mind that Lincoln would not order Jeff Davis and his cabinet killed. In fact at the end of the war, when Richmond had fallen and Davis was on the run, Lincoln said to Gen. Sherman one of his most famous stories (which I'm surprised you as a Civil War scholar don't know):

"I'll tell you, General [Sherman]," Mr. LINCOLN was said to have begun; "I'll tell you what I think about taking JEFF. DAVIS. Out in Sangamon County there was an old temperance lecturer, who was very strict in the doctrine and practice of total abstinence. One day, after a long ride in the hot sun, he stopped at the house of a friend who proposed making him a lemonade. As the mild beverage was being mixed, the friend insinuatingly asked if he wouldn't like just the least drop of something stronger, to brace up his nerves after the exhausting heat and exercise. 'No,' replied the lecturer, 'I couldn't think of it; I'm opposed to it on principle. But,' he added, with a longing glance at the black bottle that stood conveniently at hand, 'If you could manage to put in a drop unbeknownst to me, I guess it wouldn't hurt me much I'"

"Now, General," Mr. LINCOLN is said to have concluded, "I'm bound to oppose the escape of JEFF. DAVIS; but if you could manage to let him slip out unbeknownst-like, I guess it wouldn't hurt me much" (http://www.nytimes.com/1865/07/04/n...stice-chase-mr-lincoln-escape-jeff-davis.html) I have yet to read a major history of the war that leaves this episode out.

Does this sound like a man who wanted Jeff Davis and his cabinet killed?

 

[Eagle eye]

I remember reading this from Bruce Catton's Civil War (which is all three books of his Army of the Potomac trilogy in one) and Shelby Foote. But if you want sources, here's what I got from a quick search on the internet. http://www.mdgorman.com/Written_Accounts/Books/kilpatricks.htm

---------------------------
Thanks Lincoln 65… I'll check out Catton & Foote & see if they list their sources…My memory isn't what it use to be & that's why I sometimes ask for a source. Please don't take offense to my asking & I appreciate your answering my question.
Respectfully
EE

 

[rickvox79]

I disagree. I have no doubt in my mind that Lincoln would not order Jeff Davis and his cabinet killed. In fact at the end of the war, when Richmond had fallen and Davis was on the run, Lincoln said to Gen. Sherman one of his most famous stories (which I'm surprised you as a Civil War scholar don't know):

"I'll tell you, General [Sherman]," Mr. LINCOLN was said to have begun; "I'll tell you what I think about taking JEFF. DAVIS. Out in Sangamon County there was an old temperance lecturer, who was very strict in the doctrine and practice of total abstinence. One day, after a long ride in the hot sun, he stopped at the house of a friend who proposed making him a lemonade. As the mild beverage was being mixed, the friend insinuatingly asked if he wouldn't like just the least drop of something stronger, to brace up his nerves after the exhausting heat and exercise. 'No,' replied the lecturer, 'I couldn't think of it; I'm opposed to it on principle. But,' he added, with a longing glance at the black bottle that stood conveniently at hand, 'If you could manage to put in a drop unbeknownst to me, I guess it wouldn't hurt me much I'"

"Now, General," Mr. LINCOLN is said to have concluded, "I'm bound to oppose the escape of JEFF. DAVIS; but if you could manage to let him slip out unbeknownst-like, I guess it wouldn't hurt me much" (http://www.nytimes.com/1865/07/04/n...stice-chase-mr-lincoln-escape-jeff-davis.html) I have yet to read a major history of the war that leaves this episode out.

Does this sound like a man who wanted Jeff Davis and his cabinet killed?

I agree with Lincoln65 here. Lincoln didn't want a spectacle when the war ended. He didn't want leaders of the Confederacy hung or put on showy revenge trials that would dominate the press and papers. He was about the business of putting the country back together again and wanted it done as quickly and easily as possible after the war ended. I have a hard time seeing that same Lincoln scheming to have Jefferson Davis and his entire cabinet killed. He must have known how bad that would have looked publicly.

 

[Lincoln65]

---------------------------
Thanks Lincoln 65… I'll check out Catton & Foote & see if they list their sources…My memory isn't what it use to be & that's why I sometimes ask for a source. Please don't take offense to my asking & I appreciate your answering my question.
Respectfully
EE

No, I didn't take any offense, and it is good to always ask for sources if you are not sure.

 

[Lincoln65]

Yes, I agree that the Dahlgren papers are authentic. I think that's been established to the satisfaction of all objective students.

I don't know why it's "beyond ludicrous" to believe that Lincoln authorized the killing of Davis and the cabinet and the burning of the city. Lincoln had allowed, and even blessed, barbaric conduct on the part of Sherman, Sheridan, and Grant. So why is it so hard to believe that he would have approved of this part of the Dahlgren plan?

As for the idea that Stanton issued that order, I don't know. As despotic and vicious as Stanton was, I'm not sure that even he would have taken it upon himself to authorize the killing of Davis and the cabinet. I would not be shocked to learn that Stanton issued the order and didn't tell Lincoln, but I'm inclined to think that a decision of that magnitude, a decision that could have come with such enormous consequences and that could have backfired into an international PR disaster, would have been made by Lincoln.

I responded to Civil War Scholar about this, you should read that post. I don't see how you could believe that Lincoln was more ruthless than Stanton. Also, I don't think that Sherman, Sheridan, or especially Grant were 'barbaric' in their conduct.

 

[JPWalton]

There isn't enough evidence to support a firm conclusion one way or the other, but what evidence there is leads me to think the controversial Dahlgren orders were given to Kilpatrick and Dahlgren by Stanton, and were issued without the knowledge of the President or anyone else in the Cabinet.

 

[JPWalton]

Um, guys.... I think at this point we can either do a thread about the Dahlgren Controversy and drop the tit-for-tattery, or the moderators can close the thread.

 

[cash]

Anyone who thinks Lincoln ordered Dahlgren to assassinate Davis is free to post their evidence. That's evidence, not speculation, not opinion, not delusions, not suspicions.

 

[Nathanb1]

I'd better see some, then. Having actually read some book about it, by a very good historian, I'll be watching.

Posted in Capacity as Moderator

 

[Drew]

Anyone who thinks Lincoln ordered Dahlgren to assassinate Davis is free to post their evidence. That's evidence, not speculation, not opinion, not delusions, not suspicions.

I'll offer another vote to lock the thread. When the OP has had a chance to read Eric Wittenberg's book, he/she can start a new thread to discuss it. I'm sure many will be game. This thread has already been blown up by about everything, except my friend's cousin's trip to the beach last week....stick a fork in it.

 

[Nathanb1]

Lincoln65,
If Lincoln wanted a civilized war and quick reconciliation, he would never approve of the barbarous warfare practiced by his generals. He would never confiscate private property, authorize the raze of towns and cities, the rapes of the women and the extermination of civilians. Sherman, Sheridan and Grant made the areas their armies traversed a desert, with half-naked civilians crouching and desperately searching for food and drink barely enough for them to live. The Shenandoah Valley and great areas in Georgia and South Carolina were deserted, not a man or animal was found alive within them. Finally, he would never promote criminals, such as John McNeil, who wiped Palmyra, Missouri out of the maps, or Ormsby Mitchell, who brought wreak and havoc in North Alabama.
Civil War Scholar.

This is without a doubt even more ludicrous than setting fires on Little Round Top. I surrender.

 

[Nathanb1]

I'm locking this till someone gets a grip.

Posted in Capacity as Moderator

 

[jgoodguy]

As moderator.

I am going to reopen this thread with the following rules.
Off topic posts get deleted.
Post with over the top rhetoric, get deleted.
Evidence and argumentation or else it gets deleted.
No warning -- break a rule in my opinion and your literary rhetorical masterpiece is gone.
This is a First Amendment Free Zone.

 

[Lincoln65]

Well, going back to Dahlgren and his raid, I think it would be interesting to know what happened to the note right after it was taken from Dahlgren's body. Was it thrown in with all the other Confederate state papers or was it kept separate? Also, who delivered it to Stanton?

 

[Billy Yank]

I think it should be called Kilpatrick's Raid since he outranked young Dahlgren and it was his (Kilpatrick's) idea in the first place. As for the papers, I'm not sure any hard evidence exists one way or the other to reach a solid conclusion.

 

[Rebforever]

I believe it was General Couch was in charge of the Union army at that time at Mine Run. Meade was at a hearing in Washington. I forget how this program started in the first place but there was a crossing of the Rapidan and fighting started no one new for what reason. It was a planned diversion to kick off Kilpatrick's raid. It worked.

 

[CSA Today]

Jefferson Davis was a thin skinned individual who was incapable of compromise and unable to lead all the various parts of the Confederacy. He tried to micro-manage the war, to disastrous results, and was with one exception unwilling to trust his generals to do what they needed to do. He ignored his constitution at will and consolidated power into a central government to an extent never dreamed of by Lincoln. He was a terrible choice to lead the Confederacy, and his only saving grace was that all the other choices were eve worse. Compared to Lincoln he was a disaster in every way.

Is it your point that a more competent leader than Davis would have led to the Confederate States to independence or, at the very least, held off a second rate enemy for longer than four years? The Dahlgren raid doesn't make a lot of sense if on one of the goals was to take out Davis if he was as bad a leader as you seem to think.