Top Three Corp Commanders?

[TheSherminator]

If you could create your own army during the Civil War using known commanders of the time who would you use? Think of it as a fantasy civil war team.

Army Command: Sherman
Corps commanders: Milo Hascall, Hancock, Robert E. Lee
Cavalry: Joe Wheeler

But how about the worst army (in 1861)?
Army Command: Polk
Corps: Roger Pryor, Thomas Drayton, Buell

 

[rhp6033]

heading back off-topic of a sorts, in that this thread goes back and forth between the ACW and WWII:

It's understood that the north's major advantage was it's industrial and mapower strength, leading to the comparison of a combined U.S. against the rest of the world.

Some might want to read Maurice Matloff's study on WWII, "Command Decisions", especially his artile on John Marshall's "90 division gamble". He pointed out that most other nations in WWII were sending considerably higher percentages of their manpower into the armed services than was the U.S. But this, he asserts, was due to the U.S. productivity and the decision made rather early that the U.S. would be the major supplier to the Allied armies in the war. Each man in uniform was taken away from valuable war production jobs ("Rosie the Riveter" was still and untested concept at the time). Training facilities, uniforms, gear and weapons were still in the initial production stages, so some degree of rationing (i.e., calling up men in stages) was necessary. More importantly, after completing initial training soldiers would be relatively idle, waiting for the ships to be built to transport them overseas to their intended destination. Until adequate shipping was available, you might as well keep them producing war goods.

Although the U.S. Army strength in WWII was authorized at 90 divisions, I think it was only something like 88 which were actually activated, the remainder of the troops being sent to replacement depots to make up for losses without ever being activated.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_15.htm

Anyway, this just goes to show that it's not just about numbers, they have to be planned carefully and used properly. The Southern economy suffered in many ways during the ACW because so many of their men were taken out of productive use and sent into the Army as infantrymen.

My own choice of the "dream team":

Commander: Robert E. Lee
Corps commanders (in no particular order)
Jackson, Longstreet, A.P. Hill, Clebourne, Hancock,, Reynold.

 

[Jace Beleren]

Overall: Lee
1st Corps: Jackson
2nd Corps: Gordon
3rd Corps: Beauregard

 

[1SGDan]

Overall Command - Grant
1st Corps - Lee
2nd Corps - Sherman
3rd Corps - Longstreet

 

[trice]

...
Although the U.S. Army strength in WWII was authorized at 90 divisions, I think it was only something like 88 which were actually activated, the remainder of the troops being sent to replacement depots to make up for losses without ever being activated.
...

US Army, WWII:

Armored Divisions: 16 total (1st through 14th, 16th and 20th)​

Cavalry Divisions: 2 total (1st and 2nd)​

Other Divisions: 73 total (5 Airborne, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

1st through 9th Infantry​

10th Mountain​

11th Airborne​

12th Infantry / Philippine Division (surrendered at Bataan, reconstituted 1944)​

13th Airborne​

--- no 14th, 15th, 16th ---​

17th Airborne​

--- no 18th, 19th, 20th,21st,22nd ---​

23rd Infantry / Americal Division​

24th through 45th Infantry​

--- no 46th through 62nd ---​

63rd Infantry​

--- no 64th ---​

65th, 66th Infantry​

--- no 67th, 68th ---​

69th through 71st Infantry​

--- no 72nd, 73rd, 74th ---​

75th through 81st Infantry​

82nd Airborne​

83rd through 97th Infantry​

--- no 98th ---​

99th and 100th Infantry​

101st Airborne​

102nd, 103rd, 104th Infantry​

--- no 105th ---​

106th Infantry​

Total 91 Divisions (5 Airborne, 16 Armored, 2 Cavalry, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

US Marines, WWII: 6 total (1st through 6th, each a bit larger than an Army Infantry division)

Tim

 

[whitworth]

Must be a fantasy league. Many of the winners were either killed or missed a good part of the war by wounding.
Some get higher commands than they could in life.

 

[Robtweb1]

Army Command - Lee
I Corps - Jackson
II Corps - Cleburne
III Corps - A. P. Stewart
Artillery - Pelham
Cavalry - Forrest

 

[trice]

For the Confederates:

Army command:​

• • Lee was clearly the best the Confederates had. No one else came close.
  • If you need a second choice, Joe Johnston

Corps command:​

• • Jackson, Longstreet and Gordon​
  • Honorable Mention: Joe Johnston would have been very able in that slot​
  • Franklin Gardner, captured at Port Hudson, and Pat Cleburne, killed at Franklin, are the might-have-been choices for the Confederates.​
  • Best-of-the-rest: Hardee, A. P. Hill, maybe Jubal Early.​

For the Union:

Army command:​

• • Grant, hands down​
  • Sherman, Thomas on the next rung​
  • Meade​
  • McClellan, Hooker and Rosecrans as the flawed almosts​

Corps command:​

• • Hancock, Thomas, Reynolds​
  • A good many not great but decent-to-good men​
  • Kearney as the might have been​

Tim

 

[Greg Taylor]

US Army, WWII:

Armored Divisions: 16 total (1st through 14th, 16th and 20th)​

Cavalry Divisions: 2 total (1st and 2nd)​

Other Divisions: 73 total (5 Airborne, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

1st through 9th Infantry​

10th Mountain​

11th Airborne​

12th Infantry / Philippine Division (surrendered at Bataan, reconstituted 1944)​

13th Airborne​

--- no 14th, 15th, 16th ---​

17th Airborne​

--- no 18th, 19th, 20th,21st,22nd ---​

23rd Infantry / Americal Division​

24th through 45th Infantry​

--- no 46th through 62nd ---​

63rd Infantry​

--- no 64th ---​

65th, 66th Infantry​

--- no 67th, 68th ---​

69th through 71st Infantry​

--- no 72nd, 73rd, 74th ---​

75th through 81st Infantry​

82nd Airborne​

83rd through 97th Infantry​

--- no 98th ---​

99th and 100th Infantry​

101st Airborne​

102nd, 103rd, 104th Infantry​

--- no 105th ---​

106th Infantry​

Total 91 Divisions (5 Airborne, 16 Armored, 2 Cavalry, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

US Marines, WWII: 6 total (1st through 6th, each a bit larger than an Army Infantry division)

Tim

My father was with the 100th Infantry Division, also called the "Century Division." They broke through the Maginot line in the Stuttgart sector in early 1945 and also fought the last major engagement of the war between American and German forces. His story and letters can be read on my website at: http://wwiiwwtaylor.wordpress.com/

 

[rhp6033]

US Army, WWII:

Armored Divisions: 16 total (1st through 14th, 16th and 20th)​

Cavalry Divisions: 2 total (1st and 2nd)​

Other Divisions: 73 total (5 Airborne, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

1st through 9th Infantry​

10th Mountain​

11th Airborne​

12th Infantry / Philippine Division (surrendered at Bataan, reconstituted 1944)​

13th Airborne​

--- no 14th, 15th, 16th ---​

17th Airborne​

--- no 18th, 19th, 20th,21st,22nd ---​

23rd Infantry / Americal Division​

24th through 45th Infantry​

--- no 46th through 62nd ---​

63rd Infantry​

--- no 64th ---​

65th, 66th Infantry​

--- no 67th, 68th ---​

69th through 71st Infantry​

--- no 72nd, 73rd, 74th ---​

75th through 81st Infantry​

82nd Airborne​

83rd through 97th Infantry​

--- no 98th ---​

99th and 100th Infantry​

101st Airborne​

102nd, 103rd, 104th Infantry​

--- no 105th ---​

106th Infantry​

Total 91 Divisions (5 Airborne, 16 Armored, 2 Cavalry, 67 Infantry, 1 Mountain)​

US Marines, WWII: 6 total (1st through 6th, each a bit larger than an Army Infantry division)

Tim

Thanks for the specifics on the divisions. Matloff's treatise didn't include specific divisions. But the variation (88 vs. 90 vs. 91) might be due to the fact that Marshall was making a decision in the first couple of months in the war - a decision he nearly regretted at the time of the "Battle of the Bulge". The army may have adjusted the numbers later as it needed specialized divisions, such as airborne - but that's not what Matloff says. Of course, these numbers would not have included the U.S. Marine divisions, which were part of the Navy.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Grant as commander. Jackson commanding one corps. Hancock another corps. McPherson the third. Sheridan commanding the cavalry with Forrest as his deputy.

 

[trice]

Thanks for the specifics on the divisions. Matloff's treatise didn't include specific divisions. But the variation (88 vs. 90 vs. 91) might be due to the fact that Marshall was making a decision in the first couple of months in the war - a decision he nearly regretted at the time of the "Battle of the Bulge". The army may have adjusted the numbers later as it needed specialized divisions, such as airborne - but that's not what Matloff says. Of course, these numbers would not have included the U.S. Marine divisions, which were part of the Navy.

His number is pretty close; there may never have been more than 90 Army divisions at any one time. There is some vagueness in there in any case (for example, the 2nd Cavalry was disbanded in 1944 and broken up, the men I presume being assigned elsewhere as replacements, or the 12th Infantry / Philippine Division (surrendered at Bataan in April 1942, reconstituted only after the Leyte invasion October 20, 1944); maybe they used part of the 2nd Cavalry to help reform the 12th Infantry). The Americal Division was essentially formed from whatever they could scrape up for the Pacific in early 1942.

In practice, the numbers of the divisions tell you something else. The sequences were assigned to relate to special organizations. Before WWII (up until at least 1940), the US Army had only nine divisions in existence, and most of those were "paper" divisions. Only the 1st was at "peace strength". The 2nd was at less than "peace strength", and I think the 3rd and 4th, maybe the 5th, fell into that category as well. The 6th through 9th barely existed as anything more than cadres and organizational structures at minimal strength. When FDR entered office, the US Army had a total strength of about 135,000 men. FDR used many of the officers and NCOs as managers in the CCC, on detached duty. Omar Bradley was one of those; he hated being assigned to it, but later said it was an important step in his growth as an officer. When they instituted the draft in August 1940, the Army was above 200,000, but not by an awful lot.

Anyway, the low division numbers were assigned to Regular Army units. The next group assigned was the Reserve units to be called up and filled with recruits (i.e., non-existent for the most part). The National Guard units existed in theory, using the numbers starting at about 24 (IIRR) and going up to about 71. I think numbers above that were assigned as the US entered the war and kept expanding.

The 82nd was originally to be an infantry unit and was converted somewhere early on to an Airborne unit. For a brief time, Omar Bradley commanded it (from February, 1942 until switched to the 28th Division in June). My Dad, entering the Army in January 1943 from New York, was assigned from Basic to the 96th Infantry Division, organizing in Oregon-Washington but largely composed of troops from New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas. The various National Guard units started out associated with a specific area, composed largely of troops from there, but the demands of war soon mixed things up.

There actually was a 98th division raised and trained, but never arriving in the combat zone before the end of the war. They were instead landed as part of the occupation force in Japan (September 27, 1945). Soldiers in that unit were awarded 146 Bronze Stars during the Occupation, but I have no details on what for.

Tim

 

[CSA Today]

Over all Commander
Lee
Corps commanders
1. Jackson
2. Gordon
3. 3. Cleburne
Cavalry
Forrest

Best of the Federals
Commander – Meade
Corps commanders
1. Mower
2. Grant
3. Reynolds
Cavalry
Buford

 

[rhp6033]

His number is pretty close; there may never have been more than 90 Army divisions at any one time. There is some vagueness in there in any case (for example, the 2nd Cavalry was disbanded in 1944 and broken up, the men I presume being assigned elsewhere as replacements, or the 12th Infantry / Philippine Division (surrendered at Bataan in April 1942, reconstituted only after the Leyte invasion October 20, 1944); maybe they used part of the 2nd Cavalry to help reform the 12th Infantry). The Americal Division was essentially formed from whatever they could scrape up for the Pacific in early 1942.

In practice, the numbers of the divisions tell you something else. The sequences were assigned to relate to special organizations. Before WWII (up until at least 1940), the US Army had only nine divisions in existence, and most of those were "paper" divisions. Only the 1st was at "peace strength". The 2nd was at less than "peace strength", and I think the 3rd and 4th, maybe the 5th, fell into that category as well. The 6th through 9th barely existed as anything more than cadres and organizational structures at minimal strength. When FDR entered office, the US Army had a total strength of about 135,000 men. FDR used many of the officers and NCOs as managers in the CCC, on detached duty. Omar Bradley was one of those; he hated being assigned to it, but later said it was an important step in his growth as an officer. When they instituted the draft in August 1940, the Army was above 200,000, but not by an awful lot.

Anyway, the low division numbers were assigned to Regular Army units. The next group assigned was the Reserve units to be called up and filled with recruits (i.e., non-existent for the most part). The National Guard units existed in theory, using the numbers starting at about 24 (IIRR) and going up to about 71. I think numbers above that were assigned as the US entered the war and kept expanding.

The 82nd was originally to be an infantry unit and was converted somewhere early on to an Airborne unit. For a brief time, Omar Bradley commanded it (from February, 1942 until switched to the 28th Division in June). My Dad, entering the Army in January 1943 from New York, was assigned from Basic to the 96th Infantry Division, organizing in Oregon-Washington but largely composed of troops from New Mexico, Oklahoma and Texas. The various National Guard units started out associated with a specific area, composed largely of troops from there, but the demands of war soon mixed things up.

There actually was a 98th division raised and trained, but never arriving in the combat zone before the end of the war. They were instead landed as part of the occupation force in Japan (September 27, 1945). Soldiers in that unit were awarded 146 Bronze Stars during the Occupation, but I have no details on what for.

Tim

Thanks again - good info. I remember reading some time ago that by 1945, there was only one Army division in the Continental U.S. which wasn't involved in specific duties such as training, etc. Perhaps that was the 98th. As for the Bronze Stars, I asked my Dad about his which was stuck in his drawer along with his Purple Heart. He just snorted and said that Bronze Stars were a big deal if given to enlisted men, but merely "Good Conduct Medals" when given to officers (he was an officer in Korea). Of course, a Bronze Star with a "V" for "valour" is another thing altogether.

I guess I'm getting pretty far afield of the Civil War era. I think the subject came up with respect to the ability of a combined Union and Confederate army, and how it would have competed with the other great armies of the age. Pretty well, I should think - at least by 1865, when all the problem commanders had been circulated out one way or another.

 

[trice]

Thanks again - good info. I remember reading some time ago that by 1945, there was only one Army division in the Continental U.S. which wasn't involved in specific duties such as training, etc. Perhaps that was the 98th. As for the Bronze Stars, I asked my Dad about his which was stuck in his drawer along with his Purple Heart. He just snorted and said that Bronze Stars were a big deal if given to enlisted men, but merely "Good Conduct Medals" when given to officers (he was an officer in Korea). Of course, a Bronze Star with a "V" for "valour" is another thing altogether.

I guess I'm getting pretty far afield of the Civil War era. I think the subject came up with respect to the ability of a combined Union and Confederate army, and how it would have competed with the other great armies of the age. Pretty well, I should think - at least by 1865, when all the problem commanders had been circulated out one way or another.

In 1945, after Germany fell, you could get out of the service if you had enough points. A Bronze Star counted as 1 point, IIRR -- and there was a sudden flood of recommendations out of Europe for people who needed an extra point to qualify. One of the generals in Washington threw a fit over it (I think it was Gerow) and insisted on designating which ones were actually for Valor instead of other actions. As a result, in 1945 they started cutting a small "V" into the back of the Bronze Stars that were actually awarded for valor in action.

My Dad, who fought with the 96th in Leyte and Okinawa, has one of those. I used to play with it when I was a kid, although I didn't know what it was, really, just that it was my Dad's. I can't say I knew about the clusters on it or the Purple Heart with clusters until 2008.

As to the Civil War, the United States did not give out medals to military personnel up until then (exception: George Washington gave out 3 Purple Hearts, which were not for being wounded then, during or shortly after the Revolution). The Medal of Honor was the first and only when Congress passed the law establishing it in 1862 -- and it was originally not-for-officers.

Tim

 

[OpnCoronet]

To fight a War(rather than A battle):

Army Command: Grant
I Corps: Thomas
II Corps: Jackson
III Corps Longstreet

Cavalry Corps: James Ewell Brown Stuart
Artillery: Hunt

 

[Shotgun Willie]

No love for Ol' Jeb anyone??

 

[OpnCoronet]

No love for Ol' Jeb anyone??

In battles and campaigns, I would want no one else to be the eyes of my army.

 

[carson_reb]

General-in-chief: Robert E. Lee

Commander of the Army: U.S. Grant

Corps Commanders: T.J. Jackson (Art), P.G.T. Beauregard (Art), A.S. Johnston (Inf), John F. Reynolds (Inf), W.S. Hancock (Inf), J.C. Gordon (Inf), J.P. Longstreet (Inf), W.T. Sherman (Inf), N.B. Forrest (Cav), Phil Sheridan (Cav), JEB Stuart (Cav), G.C. McClellan (Eng)

 

[BillO]

Army Command R.E.Lee
Corp Commanders Richard Taylor, Stonewall Jackson, Sherman, Forrest.
Artillery Commander Hunt.
Cavalry Commander Hampton