Lincoln (2012)

Took my family to it today, really enjoyed it. My kids are still pre-pubescent, but they are well read and followed the jokes and congressional tirades well, even repeating lines and laughing as we left. The portrayal of politics and general racism/sexism of the time hit it square. And in doing so it also displayed the degree of racism that was endemic to the slave/Southern culture of the time. I also noted it displayed the results of Andrew Jackson's spoils system as a corrupting influence rather well.

I was surprised by the 2nd KS Colored and Jenkins' Ferry sequences. Two of my ancestors were brigaded with them and fought beside them there. A man in their company described the battlefield in his diary as "two to ten inches deep" in water.
 



Why Aren't More Liberals Defending 'Lincoln'?
By Ta-Nehisi Coates

Dec 3 2012, 2:29 PM ET 3 Kicking off our roundtable discussion about Steven Spielberg's film.
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Lincoln is the first major biopic in more than 70 years of the man many consider our greatest president. The result has been a fascinating back and forth among scholars and writers about what the film does and doesn't do, who it portrays and who it doesn't. Last week I spent some time (off-line) with New York Times film critic A.O. Scott debating the film's meaning and impact. We've decided to bring that discussion online and add in some other voices, including historian Kate Masur, who has examined how Lincoln deals with the role of African-American activism at the end of the Civil War.
We pick up the conversation with the following note addressed to Scott and Masur, taking up our conversation from last week. The major theme under debate is simple: Why haven't more liberals defended Lincoln?
Tony and Kate,
Thanks for joining agreeing to join in this conversation. I want to start with something Tony raised in a previous conversation—the lack of a forthright liberal defense of Lincoln, even though the movie is about the expansion of civil rights to African-Americans, an issue which sits firmly in the bailiwick of liberals. It's true that you don't have many conservatives arguing that black people should have remained slaves. But to the extent that there is any modern tradition of soft-pedaling slavery, it exist almost wholly among conservatives. And it does still exist, by the way
I actually think this is the root of the problem. The conservative movement in America has always enjoyed a proximity to ****, which many of its more respectable figures must find uncomfortable. But it's not like you can simply write this relation off to fringe groups, or some unreformed anti-intellectual mass. I've always found it rather amazing to hear respectable conservatives pining for the days of William F. Buckley, whom they see as the epitome of the sober conservative intellectual. This is hard for me to take. This is the same Buckley who backed segregation, backed Apartheid, and greeted the Civil Rights Movement by saying, "The great majority of the Negroes of the South who do not vote do not care to vote and would not know for what to vote if they could."
Here is the intellectual father of modern conservatism, standing athwart history. Black history.
The problem extends back to the Civil War, where conservatives have long enjoyed a cozy alliance with people who insist the Civil War wasn't about slavery, that it was prosecuted by a tyrannical Lincoln, and that black people fought for the Confederacy in untold numbers. It's telling that the Republican Party's idea of an alternative candidate was Ron Paul—the ultimate Lost Causer, who denounces Lincoln as a man who went to war to "get rid of the intent of the republic."
Among historians of the Civil War, the sort of views expressed on the right have zero currency. If you really believe, as Paul does, that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, you should expect about as much respect among the experts of the war as global warming denialists receive from those who study climate change.
Thus the reason I think we don't see more liberals engaging in a full-throated defense of Lincoln is that the opposing view—the one that animates films like the Gone With Wind and Gods and Generals, which animates television shows like Hell on Wheels, which finds people holding Secession Balls and celebrating the attempt to raise a republic premised on ****—has no respect among anyone who's seriously thought about the issue.
Think about it like this. There's been a great debate roiling the academy between people like Sean Wilentz who think we underplay the importance of politicians, and historians who emphasize the actions of activists and radicals. This has been a pretty heated debate, and I think we see it play out in Lincoln. But it's not like Wilentz is trying to "clean" slavery. The role of politicians and radicals in democracy is a legit and interesting debate in a way that debating states rights vs. slavery just isn't.
Conservatives, as they have in other intellectual arenas, have simply fled the field. The result is that when you see a film like Lincoln, what you find is liberals hotly critiquing the film because things that may seem revolutionary in the grand sweep of American politics aren't among people who've spent years thinking about Lincoln's legacy and the Civil War.
I do think that we're missing certain things in our rush to say what Lincoln isn't. As I've said, I think the first and last scene are revolutionary—as are the scenes when the Confederate representatives find themselves greeted by black soldiers. More on that later.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...arent-more-liberals-defending-lincoln/265847/
 
:unsure: Huh. I wasn't aware that liberals were panning the film. (?) Matter of fact, very few people are panning the film; it's running a solid 90% on Rotten Tomatoes (95% among top critics).
 
:unsure: Huh. I wasn't aware that liberals were panning the film. (?) Matter of fact, very few people are panning the film; it's running a solid 90% on Rotten Tomatoes (95% among top critics).
I don't think they were very interested in what people were actually saying about the film, they just wanted an excuse to call conservatives a bunch of racist.

Seriously, they pull out something Buckley editoralized about in 1957 that he later renounced. Hmmm... do you suppose we could find an old quote from Robert Byrd, the longest serving Democratic Senator in history, that might be equally offensive?
 
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I don't think they were very interested in what people were actually saying about the film, they just wanted an excuse to call conservatives a bunch of racist.

Seriously, they pull out something Buckley editoralized about in 1957 that he later renounced. Hmmm... do you suppose we could find an old quote from Robert Byrd, the longest serving Democratic Senator in history, that might be equally offensive?
One thing that's important to understand here is that Coates' blog at The Atlantic is long-standing, ongoing conversation. Discussion of the Civil War, emancipation, Reconstruction, and related topics has been going on there for years. The arguments made (both in the main post and comments that follow) are often complex and nuanced, and aren't going to be followed by skimming one or two blog posts. If you want to engage the folks over there, I'd encourage you to do so, but they're a smart bunch. They tend to be politically liberal, yes, but they also know the source material very well -- including group reads of McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, Foner's Reconstruction, and Johnson's Soul by Soul, among other things -- and you should probably take some time to follow the conversation, before making assumptions about what folks there believe or are motivated by.
 
and you should probably take some time to follow the conversation, before making assumptions about what folks there believe or are motivated by.

Honestly, you seriously want to tell me that post wasn't clear enough regarding what they believe? There was nothing "complex and nuanced" about it. Get off your high horse, just because I'm not a liberal doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to understand what they meant.
 
I thought it was a fantastic movie. I was never bored, even though movies that last over two hours can be tedious. I was never put off that the actors did not look exactly like the people they portrayed (Grant) - I thought they all were wonderful. I would be surprised if Daniel Day Lewis and Tommy Lee Jones were not considered for Oscars. I was very moved by the movie. I have no doubt I will see it again when it is available on disk. History, especially our history, sometimes ugly, is fascinating. I think this movie is fascinating.
Thought Grant looked too old. He was only 43 years old when the movie took place.
 
I did not! Great eye. Which session was it? I'll want to watch for it when I see the film again.
Hm... I don't remember the exact session... It was a scene in which Tommy Lee Jones' character (his real name escapes me) and another guy (his name, also, escapes me) are sitting in a hallway following one of the sessions. There is a marble statue of George Washington in the background. The shot temporarily pops out to show both Jones and the other guy talking about the topics while Jones sits on a bench, and on the right side of the shot, beside a chair, is a dark box on the wall. I could only figure it was a power outlet. Sorry I couldn't be more descriptive, I don't remember much about it.
 
Hm... I don't remember the exact session... It was a scene in which Tommy Lee Jones' character (his real name escapes me) and another guy (his name, also, escapes me) are sitting in a hallway following one of the sessions. There is a marble statue of George Washington in the background. The shot temporarily pops out to show both Jones and the other guy talking about the topics while Jones sits on a bench, and on the right side of the shot, beside a chair, is a dark box on the wall. I could only figure it was a power outlet. Sorry I couldn't be more descriptive, I don't remember much about it.
OK, I know exactly what scene that is -- the one where Tim Blake Nelson (bearded guy, can't recall character's name either) berates Jones' character (Thaddeus Stevens) for going against his principles by saying he was only in favor of blacks' equality before the law. Then Jones replies that apparently there's nothing he won't do to get the amendment passed. I'll keep my eyes peeled and see if I think it looks like an outlet.
 
I have not seen the movie. I am not a big Spielberg fan. I will see it eventually but my curiosity has been piqued by the
debate on the 13th Amendment. I am finding it hard to understand who could have opposed it on other than procedural or semantical grounds. Were there politicians who, after all the destruction and carnage, were willing to put things back the way they were before the conflict?
Does the movie place you back then or does it moralize from a 21st century perspective? Thanks.
 
I am finding it hard to understand who could have opposed it on other than procedural or semantical grounds. Were there politicians who, after all the destruction and carnage, were willing to put things back the way they were before the conflict?
Does the movie place you back then or does it moralize from a 21st century perspective? Thanks.

I didn't detect much in the way of overt moralizing, above and beyond the fact that it treats the passage of the amendment as a positive rather than a negative event. It seems to be a thinly-dramatized version of real events, albeit heavily focused on Lincoln.

The politicians who supported it and those who opposed it did not all make their decisions based on the morality of slavery. That was one of the most interesting features of the movie, actually: to see that individuals on both sides had different individual agendas, and the movie is to a large extent about herding all those wayward cats into some semblance of order. (And then there are the Confederates, with an entirely different set of cats!)

Even Lincoln himself notes the inconsistencies as he sums up the need for the amendment: the legal grounds for the Emancipation Proclamation was actually posited on the assumption that slaves WERE property that could be confiscated from their owners. I think the film does a great job of showing how complex the issues were and how tough it was to get a majority (to say nothing of unanimity) on them, even in the North.
 
I am finding it hard to understand who could have opposed it on other than procedural or semantical grounds.

One notable... well, it really downplays it to call it a 'subplot'; call it a 'strong secondary influence'... concerned the dilemma that the Confederacy was sending out feelers for a peaceful settlement, which was well-known (and welcomed) by the conservative faction of the Republican Party (symbolized and to some extent headed by Preston Blair, played by Hal Holbrook), and that the chances of peace would be torpedoed by insistence on the 13th amendment; and yet, a peace made before passage of the amendment would make its passage far more difficult afterwards. Definitely Scylla and Charybdis...
 
I have not seen the movie. I am not a big Spielberg fan.

That's something I've always found a little curious - it's about Lincoln and the war and politics; I don't think of it primarily as a "Spielberg movie" any more than I would have skipped say Valkyrie because it's a "Tom Cruise movie". It's definitely worth seeing.

Does it moralize? Well, there's an obvious perception that ending slavery is a good thing. I don't recall any of the characters in Congress etc. disagreeing with that, but in answer to your question, the objection was not so much to the literal text of the amendment as to the implication that it would lead to total negro equality, which very few people, including many abolitionists, including Lincoln himself for much of his life, believed in or desired. Many people, again including Lincoln for at least part of his life, wished to link emancipation to emigration, sending free blacks "back" to Africa or perhaps to colonies in Central America. If Congress could have waved a magic wand and changed history so slavery never happened at all, that would likely have gone through with minimal objection :wink:
 
Thanks for bringing that up, Mark. That was my main quibble with the movie, the implication that peace and reconciliation depended upon the amendment. The fundamental issue was still southern independence, on which there is no feasible compromise. The southern states are either independent or not, 1 or 0. The math was no different in 1865 than 1861. The Confederate commissioners wanted to work out some arrangement based on their independence and Lincoln et. al. based on their return to the Union.

As I understand it, the implication that the southern states could rejoin the Union and take a stand against the amendment was a bit facetious. Sure they could, but the Unionist position all along had been that the states had never legally left the Union and that ratification therefore required 27 states - and could be accomplished whether or not the remainder participated. Hence one insightful moment that a lot of people probably missed, during the discussion between Lincoln and Stephens, the reference to Tennessee, Louisiana, and IIRC one other state in which Unionist governments had been reestablished and could be expected to vote for ratification.
 
As I understand it, the implication that the southern states could rejoin the Union and take a stand against the amendment was a bit facetious. Sure they could, but the Unionist position all along had been that the states had never legally left the Union and that ratification therefore required 27 states - and could be accomplished whether or not the remainder participated. Hence one insightful moment that a lot of people probably missed, during the discussion between Lincoln and Stephens, the reference to Tennessee, Louisiana, and IIRC one other state in which Unionist governments had been reestablished and could be expected to vote for ratification.

I caught that about Tennessee and Louisiana... and was the other one Arkansas? Whichever it was, it didn't make sense to me, as those were the only two candidates I was previously aware of. (Or was it Nevada?)

Whether they could actually have reintegrated and then voted against passage, though, is a separate thing from the fear that they would try, which was not just a mirage...
 
I'm fairly sure it was another one of the seceded states - or as Lincoln would put it non-seceded states :wink: Doubt there was much question about Nevada, California, Oregon.

Now that I think of it, ratification requires positive votes by 3/4 of the states, doesn't matter whether the other ones vote against, abstain, boycott the whole process - or act like they're a different country :wink:
 

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