Ebenezer creek

[wilber6150]

troll bain?Thats a negative,sir. I never said it was acceptable to kill any one...

You seem to be defending Wheelers men killing the escaped slaves...

 

[Nathanb1]

I love axes. Try this one later. Maybe.

Officially locked

Posted in Capacity as Moderator

 

[Nathanb1]

I may shoot myself in the morning. Try this ONE more time. Next time it goes for good.

 

[ole]

Let's pick apart the OP. Anybody have a source for Sherman saying something like, "I'll invite the able-bodied and single to come with me; the rest of you are safer and better-cared for where you are."

 

[wilber6150]

I haven't seen that but I have seen sources where Sherman is trying to tell slave elders to talk to their people and comvince them to stay where they are and not to follow his men..

 

[dvrmte]

Davis didn't kill any of them. Wheeler's men did.

How many? Where's the evidence that any were killed?

 

[K Hale]

Regardless of whether any were killed, or of how many died in the creek, I want to reemphasize what I said earlier that Sherman was not present and did not find out about it until hours or days later.

Sherman did not strand anyone at Ebenezer Creek, nor did Forrest massacre black troops at Fort Pillow. Blaming either one personally is misguided.

 

[cash]

How many? Where's the evidence that any were killed?

I've already posted an eyewitness account. Read the thread.

 

[FourLeafClover]

What I am having trouble finding, and I believe it is very pertinent.

How far behind Davis's XIV corps, was Wheelers cavalry. I am finding conflicting descriptions. From "suddenly, they appeared", to
'A guard was detailed to enforce the order, ' Kerr recalled. 'But, patient and docile as the negroes always were, the guard was really unnecessary.'

Giving the impression of no great rush.

So close to the end of the march. There appears little appetite from Davis and his men to take on Wheeler. It could be described as "a chase to the sea".

 

[Republican Blues]

Expired Image Removed

Can't find any other info but this is supposed to be Ebenezer creek.

Sorry, thats Kennesaw Mountain

 

[dvrmte]

I've already posted an eyewitness account. Read the thread.

Col. Kerr's account? One Union eyewitness that grossly exaggerated the numbers? He stated 5,000 was a conservative number and his own side didn't believe him. You need to produce what Connaly wrote rather some snippets from his story. Wheeler's account is much more believable and is supported by the Union OR's I previously posted. I want to see some facts rather than reckless accusations against Wheeler supported by one exaggerating soldier.

 

[wilber6150]

Wheelers account that they peacefully returned the slaves back? So Kerr made up the story about seeing blacks beings killed?

 

[diane]

What I am having trouble finding, and I believe it is very pertinent.

How far behind Davis's XIV corps, was Wheelers cavalry. I am finding conflicting descriptions. From "suddenly, they appeared", to
'A guard was detailed to enforce the order, ' Kerr recalled. 'But, patient and docile as the negroes always were, the guard was really unnecessary.'

Giving the impression of no great rush.

So close to the end of the march. There appears little appetite from Davis and his men to take on Wheeler. It could be described as "a chase to the sea".

I've seen widely varying accounts of this event, too. Some say Wheeler's men were thundering into the rear of the slave column as Davis was hauling in his last pontoon. Others say the blacks camped overnight and Wheeler showed up sometime in the early afternoon. That's a mighty wide range there!

Sherman estimated he had 3,000 following him - others have suggested anywhere from 5,000 to 650 or so. That's one other similarity we can make between Ft Pillow and Ebenezer Creek - it's darned near impossible now to find out what REALLY happened there. However, one thing is inescapable. A whole lot of innocent people died who should not have died, and no one was held responsible for it.

 

[cash]

Col. Kerr's account? One Union eyewitness that grossly exaggerated the numbers? He stated 5,000 was a conservative number and his own side didn't believe him. You need to produce what Connaly wrote rather some snippets from his story. Wheeler's account is much more believable and is supported by the Union OR's I previously posted. I want to see some facts rather than reckless accusations against Wheeler supported by one exaggerating soldier.

Thanks, but I think I'll continue producing what I want to produce rather than what you want me to produce. To be very frank, what you want to see is quite near the bottom of my priorities. Col Kerr was an eyewitness. Sherman wasn't. Did it ever occur to you that Sherman and Jefferson C. Davis might have reason to want to not believe Kerr's account?

 

[wilber6150]

Massacer probably not, did people drown trying to escape from being sent back to their masters.. Most likely..Were some slaves killed by Confederates? From accounts of other events where rebels captured blacks they thought were helping Northeners also most likely that some were killed..

 

[diane]

Massacer probably not, did people drown trying to escape from being sent back to their masters.. Most likely..Were some slaves killed by Confederates? From accounts of other events where rebels captured blacks they thought were helping Northeners also most likely that some were killed..

That's why the black soldiers had a heck of a lot of gumption! (Kind of belies the assertion by some that slavery wasn't so bad...but that's another thread!) Wheeler said simply that he had retrieved 2,000 'stolen' Negroes for return to their owners, counting them in his tally of property saved by his action. His report sounds very benign - this was after the explosion over Ft Pillow, so Confederate cavalrymen were being most careful in their reports about black people! Slocum simply took Davis' word for what happened and forwarded it to his superior, Sherman, who took Slocum's word that Davis' word was good! However, there was some valid reason for Davis' action - he had a number of difficult creeks and swamps to pass and there was a considerable threat from Hardee, who was still in front of Savannah. It doesn't justify the deaths of those people, though - at least not in my mind.

 

[dvrmte]

Thanks, but I think I'll continue producing what I want to produce rather than what you want me to produce. To be very frank, what you want to see is quite near the bottom of my priorities. Col Kerr was an eyewitness. Sherman wasn't. Did it ever occur to you that Sherman and Jefferson C. Davis might have reason to want to not believe Kerr's account?

Wheeler's account of bombarding the fortified camp after dark on December 8th is much more believable because it's supported by other sources, Union and Confederate. His account mentions capturing a dispatch, which is dated December 8th, supporting the account of attacking a fortified camp of Union soldiers and sending approximately 2,000 slaves back to their masters.

I've already posted it once, I think but here is the captured dispatch.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=092/0663

HEADQUARTERS FOURTEENTH ARMY CORPS,
Near Ebenezer Creek, GA., December 8, 1864.
Brigadier General A. BAIRD,
Commanding Third Division, Fourteenth Army Corps:
General Carlin has just begun to advance toward the crossing. The general commanding directs you to take charge of the cavalry, dispose it as you may deem best to cover your crossing, and cross your division over the creek to-night. He desires that you give orders to the commanders of the cavalry to hold possession of the causeway on this side of the bridge until to-morrow noon at least. Having crossed his animals, he will thoroughly obstruct the road with fallen timber and will destroy the bridge as completely as possible.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
A. C. McCLURG,
Assistant Adjutant-General and Chief of Staff.
---------------
* This dispatch was captured by General Joseph Wheeler.

 

[FourLeafClover]

I still cannot get my head around, that the able bodied men at the front. Didn't have wives and children possibly elders abandoned to the rear. What would be their incentive to continue helping those who had let them down? Military interests or not.
Many local reports from newspapers in Effingham county and Savannah, cite "The bodies of the dead floating out from the creek for many years after". This suggests, a lot of bodies.

 

[wilber6150]

I still cannot get my head around, that the able bodied men at the front. Didn't have wives and children possibly elders abandoned to the rear. What would be their incentive to continue helping those who had let them down? Military interests or not.
Many local reports from newspapers in Effingham county and Savannah, cite "The bodies of the dead floating out from the creek for many years after". This suggests, a lot of bodies.

Do you have a link for any of those? I've never ran across those accounts..

 

[ole]

What I am having trouble finding, and I believe it is very pertinent.

How far behind Davis's XIV corps, was Wheelers cavalry. I am finding conflicting descriptions. From "suddenly, they appeared", to
'A guard was detailed to enforce the order, ' Kerr recalled. 'But, patient and docile as the negroes always were, the guard was really unnecessary.'

Giving the impression of no great rush.

So close to the end of the march. There appears little appetite from Davis and his men to take on Wheeler. It could be described as "a chase to the sea".

That Wheeler was close enough to bombard camps of the XIVth is ample evidence that they were close -- less than a mile.

All unit commanders were under orders to not fight pitched battles; there could be little replenishment of ammunition until Savannah was taken. Sherman even issued orders to not waste ammunition on livestock. Poultry could be caught, pigs could be bayonetted, and larger animals could be rounded up and driven away. Superfluous livestock could have their throats cut.

If Davis had chosen to fight off Wheeler, Sherman would have been very angry at the waste of men and ammo so close to the object.