New interpretative center.

[Biscoitos]

I don't have any idea as to it's worth. Although it is a very rare projectle. The gentleman who found the shell Dickey had wouldn't sell it. But the guy wound up trading it to Dickey for a boat and motor. Charles would probably pay the owners price, if the guy wanted to sell it.

Tom had told me the story about the guy not willing to sell the shell, but said fe wanted a boat and motor. Tom bought the boat and motor and exchanged it for the projectile.
Its now in his collecton a part of the Atlanta Historical Society holdings.

A bunch of us were talking about this once and someone asked what it would take to get shell to be "deaccessioned" and returned to Vicksburg, where it belongs. Somebody said a room full of Philadelphia lawyers and a team of highly professional "removal artists."
Someone else simply said, "Did you see Ocean's Eleven?"

Sadly, it should be in Vicksburg.

 

[gary]

I'm sure they're interpretation would be better than mine: Somebody fought here.

The trouble with interpretation is the underlying political or social message that the interpreter tries to weave into it. I don't want to know the social aspects. I want to know how the campaign/battle developed, who the historical figures were and what happened. Military history for military history's sake.

The campaign rides must be fun. They do exactly that.

 

[Biscoitos]

I'm sure they're interpretation would be better than mine: Somebody fought here.

The trouble with interpretation is the underlying political or social message that the interpreter tries to weave into it. I don't want to know the social aspects. I want to know how the campaign/battle developed, who the historical figures were and what happened. Military history for military history's sake.

The campaign rides must be fun. They do exactly that.

The handbooks are a little stale or perhaps sterile. Not a "good read."
But they are loaded with information.
I agree the rides must be fun.
They are written by career military officers who see things sometimes from a different perspective than "civil warriors." Its great to see a new perspective, broadens our knowledge and stimulates our minds. Never a bad thing.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Milliken's Bend is outside the area covered by VNMP by Federal Government mandate.

It may be outside the Vicksburg National Military Park area but it was definitely within the Vicksburg campaign narrative.

 

[Tom Hughes]

Have you been down to Charles new museum. He has acquired a LOT of Vicksburg and surrounding battlefield arty and relics. I was in heaven.

Home - Vicksburg Civil War Museum

After seeing it all on my next trip I donated one that he didn't have. If you go tell him I sent you and he will charge you DOUBLE

View attachment 529539View attachment 529540View attachment 529541View attachment 529542View attachment 529544View attachment 529545

I've been to Charles' museum several times. Very nice indeed. He has an incredible collection!

 

[Biscoitos]

It may be outside the Vicksburg National Military Park area but it was definitely within the Vicksburg campaign narrative.

You be unhappy to learn that the VNMP only is responsible for the period beginning April 29, 1863.
No Chickasaw Bayou, and no obligation to cover the May to July 1862 "seige". The Cairo, sunk by "torpedoes" on December 12, 1862, is on display and has its own intrepretive center, only because there was no otherplace to put it So an exception was made.

 

[Samwisep86]

You be unhappy to learn that the VNMP only is responsible for the period beginning April 29, 1863.
No Chickasaw Bayou, and no obligation to cover the May to July 1862 "seige". The Cairo, sunk by "torpedoes" on December 12, 1862, is on display and has its own intrepretive center, only because there was no otherplace to put it So an exception was made.

Per Public Law 101-442 (1990), VNMP is responsible for interpreting

"the campaign and siege of Vicksburg from April 1862 to July 4, 1863, and the history of Vicksburg under Union occupation during the Civil War and Reconstruction."

 

[huskerblitz]

You be unhappy to learn that the VNMP only is responsible for the period beginning April 29, 1863.
No Chickasaw Bayou, and no obligation to cover the May to July 1862 "seige". The Cairo, sunk by "torpedoes" on December 12, 1862, is on display and has its own intrepretive center, only because there was no otherplace to put it So an exception was made.

I always thought it was dumb they don't do more with Chickasaw Bayou. It wasn't a minor skirmish and it's just edges the existing park. I suppose it's partly because the majority of the battlefield is private land, but still i think they would do more with it.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I always thought it was dumb they don't do more with Chickasaw Bayou. It wasn't a minor skirmish and it's just edges the existing park. I suppose it's partly because the majority of the battlefield is private land, but still i think they would do more with it.

Agreed.

Chickasaw Bayou is as much (if not more) an integral part of the overall Vicksburg Campaign than Milliken's Bend.

Perhaps one day, the NPS will incorporate both into the park.

But until that day comes ... I can only hope the NPS rebuilds the eroded roads and keeps the grass cut.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

A bunch of us were talking about this once and someone asked what it would take to get shell to be "deaccessioned" and returned to Vicksburg, where it belongs. Somebody said a room full of Philadelphia lawyers and a team of highly professional "removal artists."
Someone else simply said, "Did you see Ocean's Eleven?"

If Atlanta History Center doesn't have the shell on display in their rather extensive Civil War exhibit, I would think they would at least be willing to loan in for exhibit by the NPS at Vicksburg.

While the shell has a direct Vicksburg connection, it is presumably within the Scope of Collections for the Atlanta History Center.

Were two nonprofits involved, a permanent trade of artifacts might be feasible. Unfortunately, I doubt the NPS would do that out of concern that someone might pitch a fit over what they got rid of, regardless of what they gained in exchange for it.

The trouble with interpretation is the underlying political or social message that the interpreter tries to weave into it. I don't want to know the social aspects. I want to know how the campaign/battle developed, who the historical figures were and what happened. Military history for military history's sake.

The campaign rides must be fun. They do exactly that.

I certainly understand the appeal as military history is what originally drew me into history. Though as a result it took awhile before I cared about most non-military history, which is the majority of history. With few exceptions, historic sites and museums have to serve a much wider audience than just the small percentage of military history buffs.

For example, schoolchildren don't go on field trips to learn battle tactics unless they're in JROTC or attending a military academy, but field trips make up a major source of visitation for most historic sites.

 

[tony_gunter]

Agreed.

Chickasaw Bayou is as much (if not more) an integral part of the overall Vicksburg Campaign than Milliken's Bend.

Perhaps one day, the NPS will incorporate both into the park.

But until that day comes ... I can only hope the NPS rebuilds the eroded roads and keeps the grass cut.

I disagree. Chickasaw Bayou was a hare-brained venture that was shoehorned onto Grant's Mississippi Central Railroad Campaign after the fact.

Grant had no clear goal of the campaign other than to drive south, but he mentioned possible targets as Grenada, Yazoo City, and Jackson (which, as he reasoned, would impel the Confederates to abandon Vicksburg if taken).

It was basically foist upon Grant just as he was approaching his first strategic target and for all practical purposes ended his campaign in favor of Lincoln's idea that the armies should be attacking strategic targets directly in the most straightforward way possible.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I disagree. Chickasaw Bayou was a hare-brained venture

Interesting personal opinon.

But why is Milliken's Bend such an important part of the Vicksburg Campaign ... to some ?

As I said, I feel both should at least be mentioned in a new interpretative center.

 

[tony_gunter]

Interesting personal opinon.

But why is Milliken's Bend such an important part of the Vicksburg Campaign ... to some ?

As I said, I feel both should at least be mentioned in a new interpretative center.

Milliken's Bend was important because it signaled to Grant he wouldn't need to leave the bulk of the AotT in garrison on the river.

There were something like 2 million slaves in Mississippi and Louisiana, all the Federal side had to do was up their recruiting game and the gig was up.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

There were something like 2 million slaves in Mississippi and Louisiana

Thanks for explaining Grant's motives.

I'm sure the NPS will make that fact a primary focus of this new interpretive "battlefield" center.

 

[huskerblitz]

Milliken's Bend was important because it signaled to Grant he wouldn't need to leave the bulk of the AotT in garrison on the river.

There were something like 2 million slaves in Mississippi and Louisiana, all the Federal side had to do was up their recruiting game and the gig was up.

Still pales in comparison to the action at Chickasaw Bayou.

 

[Samwisep86]

Interesting personal opinon.

But why is Milliken's Bend such an important part of the Vicksburg Campaign ... to some ?

As I said, I feel both should at least be mentioned in a new interpretative center.

I think you should see both mentioned in the exhibits in the new interpretive center.

I also want to point out that the interpretive center is going to be operated and run by Miss. Dept. of Archives and History, on land outside of the park boundary, so ultimately, it's MDAH's decision on what will be included in the center. The NPS is giving its input, of course, on what should be included.

 

[tony_gunter]

Thanks for explaining Grant's motives.

I'm sure the NPS will make that fact a primary focus of this new interpretive "battlefield" center.

The slaves of the Mississippi Valley are absolutely critical to understanding the importance of Vicksburg in the context of the war, even if you just want to see the X's and O's like a war gamer (place four division counters on the board marked USCT, three economic production centers at Vicksburg, Natchez, and Port Hudson).

 

[archieclement]

Still pales in comparison to the action at Chickasaw Bayou.

And I suppose the real lesson was gunboats could drive back attacks along the river......as the USCT had been rather driven.

It's actually a curious battle to point to if trying to illustrate performance or value of USCT, as the performance wasn't particularly effective, its the gunboats who decide the minor battle.

 

[tony_gunter]

And I suppose the real lesson was gunboats could drive back attacks along the river......as the USCT had been rather driven.

It's actually a curious battle to point to if trying to illustrate performance or value of USCT, as the performance wasn't particularly effective, its the gunboats who decide the minor battle.

I think you're downplaying the performance of the USCT. A brigade of mostly untrained USCT with obsolete weapons withstood a charge by a veteran Confederate brigade and stood toe-to-toe for 30 minutes in brutal hand-to-hand combat.

It was definitely a signal that defense of the river could be entrusted to the USCT while the Army of the Tennessee redeployed to Georgia.

 

[archieclement]

And were handily pushed back as well casualties reflect they were manhandled.

The only downplaying would be not admitting the gunboats are what saved them. Which would reflect gunboats could bolster any garrison, white or black against enemies that had no counter to gunboats.

As well one should probally acknowledge the attack was based on faulty intelligence of the Confederates, and even if had been successful would actually had little impact on the campaign as it wouldn't severed his supply. Which also goes to the battle really being minor importance to campaign.