Longstreet Longstreet venal?

[NH Civil War Gal]

I have heard people use "venal" as if it meant "prone to do wrong". Maybe he just misused the term.

Even though it's not the correct definition, I've heard that too, as in "they are a wicked (or venal) man." Longstreet was neither venal in a bribery/corruption way or wicked.

 

[jackt62]

Even though it's not the correct definition, I've heard that too, as in "they are a wicked (or venal) man." Longstreet was neither venal in a bribery/corruption way or wicked.

He certainly was not, so I still can't figure out what Hess was trying to say.

 

[Irishtom29]

Well at least Hess isn't a syllable multiplier who says simplistic when he means simple, fitment when he means fit and preplanned instead of planned--those people bug me, no lie.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

He certainly was not, so I still can't figure out what Hess was trying to say.

In this case he didn't know what he was saying and the editor either didn't catch it OR he argued with the editor and the editor just gave up for survival's sake.

 

[gjpratt]

This reminds me of a recent family debate over the pronunciations of banal and venal. Specifically, the similar pronunciations ba-NAHL and ve-NAHL. Could this be a similar mixup? I am not sure banal accurately describes Longstreet (lacking originality) but it is much closer than his being corrupt or bribe-able.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

"James Longstreet inevitably attracted all the blame for the failure, and he expended a lot of energy for the rest of his life trying to explain and deflect as much of it as possible. It is ironic that the men who conducted the attack seldom blamed Longstreet; Lee's partisans were the ones who refused to let him off easily. Longstreet's post-Gettysburg career continued its ups and downs that had already begun to characterize this good but venal soldier's life. He took a good part of his corps to the Army of the Tennessee in September and played a leading role in achieving that army's only tactical victory at Chickamauga, an offensive triumph. But Longstreet argued viciously with its commander, Gen. Braxton Bragg, about the strategic follow up. ....." (The rest of the paragraph goes on to summarize his career up to Appomattox.)

Thanks for reproducing the relevant paragraph.

If one accepts that 'venal' essentially means susceptible to bribery or corruption, found no indication from reading about his military career (or other periods of his life) to suggest he might have been corruptible. Am surprised by the use of that description of him in the subject work.

Can only think that the description was based on some read critical postwar Southern accounts written about him. After the war, Longstreet was willing to espouse Northern political views and support their institutions. He joined (and encouraged Southerners also) to join the Northern dominated Republican party, supported Grant (whom he earlier befriended at West Point) in the 1868 Presidential election and attended his subsequent inauguration in Washington D.C.. Shortly afterwards, Grant appointed Longstreet as Surveyor of Customs in New Orleans with a large annual salary of $6,000. (He also gained later appointments by Republican governors and politicians, to other key public office roles).

Many Southerners at the time resented these appointments and felt that Longstreet had betrayed their cause by adopting perceived radically held Northern ideals and accepting highly paid appointments granted by Northern Republicans. Suspect that the description of 'venal' may have been based on some read Southern accounts or newspaper reports at the time that interpreted Longstreet's postwar appointments by Republicans in this light. Just speculating here, though, about a possible reason.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

The author calls the man's CAREER "Good but venal," as in "good but mercenary," as in Longstreet somehow sold-out...

In that given sense, many Southerners thought that Longstreet 'sold out' after the war, with his Northern Republican affiliations and associations.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

The more I look at this, the more I scratch my head over it. Longstreet was both "good" and "venal"? These are almost antonyms.

I looked up "venal" in the Oxford English Dictionary, and one of the definitions does depart somewhat from the idea that a venal person is subject to bribery per se:

c. Of support, favour, etc.: That may be bought or obtained for a price; ready to be given in return for some reward without regard for higher principles.

So, maybe Hess is suggesting that Longstreet was self-serving and unprincipled in some respect?

Another thing that occurred to me is that a line editor might have made a mistake and placed the wrong word here. I wouldn't expect that of UNC Press, but I guess it could happen...

Roy B.

If it was a print error, the closest similar looking words found were 'vain' and 'visceral'.

 

[JerryD]

Thanks for reproducing the relevant paragraph.

If one accepts that 'venal' essentially means susceptible to bribery or corruption, found no indication from reading about his military career (or other periods of his life) to suggest he might have been corruptible. Am surprised by the use of that description of him in the subject work.

Can only think that the description was based on some read critical postwar Southern accounts written about him. After the war, Longstreet was willing to espouse Northern political views and support their institutions. He joined (and encouraged Southerners also) to join the Northern dominated Republican party, supported Grant (whom he earlier befriended at West Point) in the 1868 Presidential election and attended his subsequent inauguration in Washington D.C.. Shortly afterwards, Grant appointed Longstreet as Surveyor of Customs in New Orleans with a large annual salary of $6,000. (He also gained later appointments by Republican governors and politicians, to other key public office roles).

Many Southerners at the time resented these appointments and felt that Longstreet had betrayed their cause by adopting perceived radically held Northern ideals and accepting highly paid appointments granted by Northern Republicans. Suspect that the description of 'venal' may have been based on some read Southern accounts or newspaper reports at the time that interpreted Longstreet's postwar appointments by Republicans in this light. Just speculating here, though, about a possible reason.

I had given that thought as well, but I think Hess is too good a historian to accept those perceptions. And in any event, he makes no allusions to his post war career so it seems very unlikely he would hint at it and then provide no context or support for it.

In any event, extremely odd.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

I had given that thought as well, but I think Hess is too good a historian to accept those perceptions. And in any event, he makes no allusions to his post war career so it seems very unlikely he would hint at it and then provide no context or support for it.

In any event, extremely odd.

Tend to agree with you.

 

[uaskme]

More than a few equate Longstreet joining the Bragg cabal because he wanted to replace Bragg.

Post War Longstreet took a job from Grant. Usually 1 political favor is returned by another political favor. So, Longstreet supported the Republican Party. Republican Party propagated a War with the South. Latter occupied the former Confederate States and installed corrupt governments which further drained wealth from them. So, by any definition, this was a sell out. Don't see any Lost Cause in It.

 

[JerryD]

More than a few equate Longstreet joining the Bragg cabal because he wanted to replace Bragg.

Post War Longstreet took a job from Grant. Usually 1 political favor is returned by another political favor. So, Longstreet supported the Republican Party. Republican Party propagated a War with the South. Latter occupied the former Confederate States and installed corrupt governments which further drained wealth from them. So, by any definition, this was a sell out. Don't see any Lost Cause in It.

So you believe in guilt by association, then. Because Longstreet was a Republican, he was guilty of every crime committed by a Republican? Is that your logic? I think he was Catholic as well, so I guess he was guilty of every crime committed by a Catholic?

By that logic, every Confederate was guilty of the Fort Pillow massacre, I guess. Whether they were there or not. Guilt by association.

 

[RobertP]

That $6,000/year job in New Orleans (post #26) would be worth $130,000/yr. today. Not bad for what was probably a no-show government job.

This doesn't mean that Venal is an appropriate descriptor of the man but a lot of people would change their tune for less.

 

[Kathy the history sleuth]

I listened to Jeff Shara's novel The Fateful Lightening recently. His description of Longstreet was quite uncomplimentary. I was surprised. Didn't mention anything "venal" though. Longstreet has a good reputation overall I think. He obeyed orders like the career soldier he was.

 

[Irishtom29]

I listened to Jeff Shara's novel The Fateful Lightening recently. His description of Longstreet was quite uncomplimentary. I was surprised. Didn't mention anything "venal" though. Longstreet has a good reputation overall I think. He obeyed orders like the career soldier he was.

Jeff Shara doesn't signify any more than my parrot or lap dog.

 

[Kathy the history sleuth]

Jeff Shara doesn't signify any more than my parrot or lap dog.

He must have gotten it from somewhere. But I agree, it's neither here nor there. I just thought it was unusual.

 

[Pete Longstreet]

"He took a good part of his corps to the Army of the Tennessee in September and played a leading role in achieving that army's only tactical victory at Chickamauga, an offensive triumph. But Longstreet argued viciously with its commander, Gen. Braxton Bragg, about the strategic follow up. ....."


I have never seen any account that Longstreet "argued" with General Bragg. He certainly disagreed with some of his decisions, as he claims in his memoirs, and attempted to share his opinions, etc. with his seniors.

Viciously, 1828 definition:
VI'CIOUSLY, adverb
1. Corruptly; in a manner contrary to rectitude, moral principles, propriety or purity.
2. Faultily; not correctly.

So Hess is stating that Longstreet's arguments against Bragg's strategy after Chickamauga were faulty and incorrect.

Good post. Longstreet and Bragg actually did have a heated exchange regarding the lack of pursuit after the Chickamauga victory.

Longstreet in an angry voice said to Bragg: "General, this Army should have been in motion at dawn of day."

Bragg made a reply, to which Longstreet then said: "yes sir, but all great captains follow up a victory."

After another remark from Bragg, Longstreet then said: "yes, sir, you rank me, but you cannot cashier me."

 

[GwilymT]

I have to think he simply incorrectly conjugated "vain".

 

[Kathy the history sleuth]

Good post. Longstreet and Bragg actually did have a heated exchange regarding the lack of pursuit after the Chickamauga victory.

Longstreet in an angry voice said to Bragg: "General, this Army should have been in motion at dawn of day."

Bragg made a reply, to which Longstreet then said: "yes sir, but all great captains follow up a victory."

After another remark from Bragg, Longstreet then said: "yes, sir, you rank me, but you cannot cashier me."

This was probably what was portrayed in Jeff Shara's book. I enjoy his books for relief from the non fiction history books I read. The novel had Longstreet heading off to Knoxville and out of the story after this. I like "hearing" the generals' voices, especially Nathan Bedford Forrest. When one shows up in my audio book app I'm just gleeful.

"That autumn, Longstreet was sent west to the aid of the beleaguered Braxton Bragg. His troops arrived on September 20, just in time to rout a significant portion of the Union line at Chickamauga. Only the staunch resistance of George H. Thomas saved the Union army. The stubborn Gen. Bragg, however, was less than warm in his reception of Gen. Longstreet and his staff, especially when several of Longstreet's generals wished to have Bragg removed from command. President Davis would not remove Bragg, and Longstreet's reputation was damaged. After a difficult winter–and an abortive attempt at independent command in East Tennessee–Longstreet and his men were happy to return to the Army of Northern Virginia in April 1864."

James Longstreet

Biography of Confederate Civil War General James Longstreet.

www.battlefields.org

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Longstreet has a good reputation overall I think.

Agree. Think his integrity was sound enough.