Zouaves

[Crimea Vet]

A quick question about ACW Zouaves.

Were they in any way considered to be 'elite' or 'above average' troops, or were their uniforms and appearance simply a military 'nod' to a much-admired French soldier type?

 

[hoosier]

Zouave units consisted of volunteers. The flashy French style of uniform was attractive to some and may have helped those units in their recruiting.

But there wasn't any sort of merit system whereby elite or above average troops were rewarded by being allowed to wear Zouave uniforms while the less exceptional were denied such a privilege. All the soldiers in a Zouave unit wore the Zouave uniform, regardless of their proficiency as soldiers.

 

[AUG]

A few regiments like the 5th New York "Duryee's Zouaves" were very well drilled. Some were said to have been trained in "Zouave drill," though when reading about their actions in battle most don't appear to have fought any differently than the average infantry regiment.

Until the 1870s, the French Zouaves consisted almost entirely of experienced professional soldiers who volunteered and were hand-picked. The Zouaves in the ACW, however, were volunteer regiments - mainly recruited from civilians, same as any other in the Civil War - so they didn't have the same level of experience and training as the originals.

There was another thread on Zouaves here not long ago where some of this was discussed:
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/ca...verything-zouave-during-the-civil-war.147918/

 

[Crimea Vet]

Thanks Hoosier & Aug for your replies.

I can't but help feel that those gawdy and impractical uniforms were more of a hindrance than a help when compared to the usual Butternut, Blue or Grey, but when I think of the British in the Crimea wearing Red tunics and Bearskin head dress this sight must surely have made a profound psychological impact upon the enemy.

Perhaps that was another reason behind the wearing of Zouave uniforms in the ACW. If you look the part, then you feel the part, and if you feel the part then perhaps it does encourage you to emulate the fighting achievements and reputation of the original Zouaves.

 

[AUG]

Thanks Hoosier & Aug for your replies.

I can't but help feel that those gawdy and impractical uniforms were more of a hindrance than a help when compared to the usual Butternut, Blue or Grey, but when I think of the British in the Crimea wearing Red tunics and Bearskin head dress this sight must surely have made a profound psychological impact upon the enemy.

Perhaps that was another reason behind the wearing of Zouave uniforms in the ACW. If you look the part, then you feel the part, and if you feel the part then perhaps it does encourage you to emulate the fighting achievements and reputation of the original Zouaves.

Certainly true. I imagine that they would help promote esprit de corps. Several regiments brigaded together - the 140th and 146th New York, and 91st and 155th Pennsylvania - were all issued Zouave uniforms in 1863-64 on account of their proficiency in drill. You'd think by then most soldiers would have preferred more practical uniforms, however they readily accepted the Zouave garb and wore them on throughout the remainder of the war.

As to those regiments being awarded Zouave uniforms, that was an exception. Most Zouave units were organized as such at the beginning of the war. Their quality varied from unit to unit, though they all seemed to have been proud of their uniforms.

 

[WJC]

My understanding is that the Zouave uniform and name were solely the choice of the particular volunteer militia unit.
While we are on the subject, has anyone seen a breakdown of Zouave units showing how many were made up of Fire Fighters?

 

[Legion Para]

has anyone seen a breakdown of Zouave units showing how many were made up of Fire Fighters?

Whether we are talking about the 34th Indiana or the 114th Pennsylvania or the Louisiana Tigers, most Zouave units were not made up of Fire Fighters.

 

[Crimea Vet]

I have read of a 'New York Fire Zouaves'. Were they made up entirely (or at least initially) of Firemen from that city?

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

I have read of a 'New York Fire Zouaves'. Were they made up entirely (or at least initially) of Firemen from that city?

Just ran across them again in a re-read of " Reveille in Washington ". One of the experts in regiments will know if the Fire Zouaves were entirely fire men, but if you're interested in them, a description of their call to fight Willard's Hotel fire is crazy good. Harper's illustration of the event showed them swarming the fire, one held upside down to reach flames- had always thought that invented? Apparently not! Eyewitness accounts say it's accurate.

 

[Crimea Vet]

Crazy Good! LOL I love it! Thank you for that JPK. Here in the UK as indeed anywhere else, Firemen by the very nature of their work hold an almost mythic awe in the imagination of the society they serve, and rightly so! One can only imagine that a Zouave unit or indeed any unit composed of Firemen would have been seen as something special!

Bearing in mind there were Zouave units on either side, does anyone know if any of these opposing units ever came up against one another during the conflict and if so, what was the outcome?

 

[Scott1967]

Were the Zouaves better soldiers I think so , If you study the psychology of wearing a different uniform so completely different to everyone else it gives you a superiority complex of believing your a better soldier.

For instance a Royal Marine wearing his green beret or a Para with his red beret take a lot of pride in their units and the fact that they look different to regular infantry its also proven that unique units fight harder as soon as you attach a tag like The Louisiana Tiger's or Iron Brigade it comes down to pride.

 

[redbob]

and

Crazy Good! LOL I love it! Thank you for that JPK. Here in the UK as indeed anywhere else, Firemen by the very nature of their work hold an almost mythic awe in the imagination of the society they serve, and rightly so! One can only imagine that a Zouave unit or indeed any unit composed of Firemen would have been seen as something special!

Bearing in mind there were Zouave units on either side, does anyone know if any of these opposing units ever came up against one another during the conflict and, neither were made up entirely of firefighters. if so, what was the outcome?

The 11th New York was the New York Fire Zouaves and the 72nd Pennsylvania was the Philadelphia Fire Zouaves .While both units recruited heavily from their city's fire companies, neither was made up entirely of firefighters and both I might add, have very handsome statues at Gettysburg and are often visited by groups of students studying at the National Fire Academy in nearby Emmitsburg, Maryland.

 

[redbob]

Were the Zouaves better soldiers I think so , If you study the psychology of wearing a different uniform so completely different to everyone else it gives you a superiority complex of believing your a better soldier.

For instance a Royal Marine wearing his green beret or a Para with his red beret take a lot of pride in their units and the fact that they look different to regular infantry its also proven that unique units fight harder as soon as you attach a tag like The Louisiana Tiger's or Iron Brigade it comes down to pride.

That covers United States Marines also, in my humble (but possibly biased opinion) a United States Marine in their Dress Blues is in one of the best looking uniforms in the world. What it took to earn the right to wear that uniform is reflected in the pride of the wearer to be wearing it.

 

[Crimea Vet]

Thanks Scott 1967 and Redbob.... I agree, each regiment usually has its 'Battle Honours' or Uniform 'peculiarities' to set it apart from the rest and this induces an individual pride and (as Aug has already so finely said) an 'esprit de corps'.

My 'old lot' was the Royal Green Jackets, and with our Green Rifleman Berets and Black Belt tradition we did not feel inferior to Marines or Paras or anyone! LOL.

Perhaps this is a case not of 'The Man maketh the Uniform' but rather the 'Uniform maketh the Man'.

Anyway....food for thought!

 

[redbob]

Thanks Scott 1967 and Redbob.... I agree, each regiment usually has its 'Battle Honours' or Uniform 'peculiarities' to set it apart from the rest and this induces an individual pride and (as Aug has already so finely said) an 'esprit de corps'.

My 'old lot' was the Royal Green Jackets, and with our Green Rifleman Berets and Black Belt tradition we did not feel inferior to Marines or Paras or anyone! LOL.

Perhaps this is a case not of 'The Man maketh the Uniform' but rather the 'Uniform maketh the Man'.

Anyway....food for thought!

One of my favorite television series was the Sharp's series about the 95th Rifle Regiment and their commander.

 

[Crimea Vet]

LOL....I do not wish to deviate from our ACW discussion, but now your are TALKING!

 

[redbob]

LOL....I do not wish to deviate from our ACW discussion, but now your are TALKING!

To keep us from being exiled to the deleted bin, the Sharp's series showed the same traits that were sought for Zouave units, pride, ability and a group's contributions to the whole army. Also, the Fire Zouave units weren't without their problems, the New York Fire Zouaves were badly handled by JEB Stuart's cavalry at Bull Run causing them to beak and flee; the Philadelphia Fire Zouaves were (depending on who you believe) forced at the point of another unit's bayonets to move up to the angle to take their place on the line at Gettysburg during the Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble assault. They were also involved in one of the bitterest fights at Gettysburg as to where they could place their monument.

 

[Crimea Vet]

Yes redbob, I see what you mean. History shows us time and time again that even the best of the best can be outfought, out gunned and outnumbered given the right conditions!

Having read the various replies to my original question I tend to see the adoption of the Zouave style by both sides in the ACW as a 'theme of its time' and as such probably had very little to do with military proficiency or experience! However, such are legends born, as Wheat's Tigers and the NY Fire Zouaves solidly testify.

My only outstanding query is to know if Zouave units from opposite sides ever came up each other in combat!

 

[redbob]

Yes redbob, I see what you mean. History shows us time and time again that even the best of the best can be outfought, out gunned and outnumbered given the right conditions!

Having read the various replies to my original question I tend to see the adoption of the Zouave style by both sides in the ACW as a 'theme of its time' and as such probably had very little to do with military proficiency or experience! However, such are legends born, as Wheat's Tigers and the NY Fire Zouaves solidly testify.

My only outstanding query is to know if Zouave units from opposite sides ever came up each other in combat!

I would think that eventually, especially in the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac's engagements that the Zouave units would have met in direct combat; though I have never seen any specific references to this.

 

[Scott1967]

I would think that eventually, especially in the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac's engagements that the Zouave units would have met in direct combat; though I have never seen any specific references to this.

I now Louisiana had Zouave units what other Southern states had Zouaves Bob?.