Lee Deification of Robert E Lee

[CMWinkler]

i agree that this is for another forum except that it does play a part and is a major tenet of the lost cause. however you touched the root of my trouble with christiaity. "truly repent". most christians will confess their sins but they don't repent. it is convenient that all you have to do is believe in jesus and are forgiven. the roman cathaloic church even invented the confessional but how many walk out truly changed ? there are few that are "christian enough" by my standard. i see it as a crutch, excuse, and reason, to commit inhuman acts in the name of humanity. if people lived more like jesus what a wonderful world it would be !
i am not sure jesus would agree with lee.
i am going to try to avoid this aspect of the war if it doesn't come up but there were a lot of comments raving about what a good christian lee was.
and it occurs to me that the bible is basically and eariler version of the lost cause , in a sense.

You are certainly entitled to your views. I am simply not sure what denying Lee's obvious Christianity is supposed to accomplish. I fear that you will never understand Lee though I hope you can learn to accept his obvious strategic and tactical abilities. His ability to inspire the affection and devotion of his men never ceases to amaze me.

 

[unionblue]

I understand their view - and your point - but the presidency isn't the whole deal and Congress can override or stalemate a president so if the south could get back control of Congress or even just keep the Senate (which they had) they would still have had plenty of power. That control, though, was being seriously eroded and the Republicans didn't look like business as usual to many in the south so they panicked. I think had they not seceded they could have had considerable power for a while longer and probably kept the Senate (although they'd have to wait another congressional election cycle or two to maybe get that back) but their days were, indeed, numbered without expansion of slavery (unless they elected to abandon such which they weren't about to do).

My argument is not that the south wasn't losing control, only that they weren't without any political power in 1860.

John Winn,

Great summary above.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[Scott Bowden]

I understand their view - and your point - but the presidency isn't the whole deal and Congress can override or stalemate a president so if the south could get back control of Congress or even just keep the Senate (which they had) they would still have had plenty of power. That control, though, was being seriously eroded and the Republicans didn't look like business as usual to many in the south so they panicked. I think had they not seceded they could have had considerable power for a while longer and probably kept the Senate (although they'd have to wait another congressional election cycle or two to maybe get that back) but their days were, indeed, numbered without expansion of slavery (unless they elected to abandon such which they weren't about to do).

My argument is not that the south wasn't losing control, only that they weren't without any political power in 1860.

Looking at it today, I understand how you and many others see it. However, many Southerners at the time believed, and I quote the November 17, 1860, editorial from the San Antonio Ledger and Texan.

"The Union of the present day is not the Union of our fathers. It has been utterly perverted from its original design, and it has become an engine of oppression, wrong and tyranny, which our fathers never contemplated."

 

[cash]

What was terrible was the voting of the yankees along with the South, to allow slavery for the money and then turn on the hand that fed them!!

When did this alleged vote take place? Please back up your claim. Source?

 

[cash]

"Lee was legend incarnate—tall, gray, one of the handsomest and most imposing men who ever lived, dressed that day in his best uniform, with a sword belted at the waist."
Bruce Catton's description of Robert E. Lee at Appomattox Courthouse"

http://www.patriotshistoryusa.com/t...terials/american-heroes-general-robert-e-lee/

More deification.

 

[Scott Bowden]

No. Simple facts from Catton.

I always thought that Erasmus Keyes, an officer who served with Lee in the antebellum army as well as commanded a corps in the Army of the Potomac against Lee during The War, said it best: "Even though Lee was exempt from every form and degree of snobbery, his sense of superiority and fitness to command" were undeniable. "No man could stand in his presence and not recognize his capacity and acknowledge his moral force."

 

[Schwallanscher]

No. Simple facts from Catton.

I always thought that Erasmus Keyes, an officer who served with Lee in the antebellum army as well as commanded a corps in the Army of the Potomac against Lee during The War, said it best: "Even though Lee was exempt from every form and degree of snobbery, his sense of superiority and fitness to command" were undeniable. "No man could stand in his presence and not recognize his capacity and acknowledge his moral force."

that does make him a formidable commander of men in battle but not a god

 

[unionblue]

Looking at it today, I understand how you and many others see it. However, many Southerners at the time believed, and I quote the November 17, 1860, editorial from the San Antonio Ledger and Texan.

"The Union of the present day is not the Union of our fathers. It has been utterly perverted from its original design, and it has become an engine of oppression, wrong and tyranny, which our fathers never contemplated."

And I understand that this is what they believed at the time, but belief at the time did not match reality in my own view.

But as I have discovered here at this forum and in life, it is belief that drives most people and not always for the better.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[CMWinkler]

that does make him a formidable commander of men in battle but not a god

I know of no one who thinks of Lee as a god, let alone God. This "deification" talk is simply designed as an attempt to delegitimize the views of those who hold Lee in high esteem. Frankly, it is an example of spin which I tend to ignore.

 

[Schwallanscher]

I know of no one who thinks of Lee as a god, let alone God. This "deification" talk is simply designed as an attempt to delegitimize the views of those who hold Lee in high esteem. Frankly, it is an example of spin which I tend to ignore.

that's what this thread is about, in my opinion that means everybody who doesn't say he is none is kinda in that camp. i may be wrong, here (again) @Martini-Henry, explain yourself, sir - what is it?

i'm an agnostic - obviously, you're not (which i know, i shouldn't say) but i hope you appreciate that i wrote a god

 

[diane]

that does make him a formidable commander of men in battle but not a god

I think some people do hold Lee in the neighborhood of a god of some sort but, curiously, Forrest-themed tourist items seem to be starting to outsell Lee-themed tourist items. Forrest was decidedly not a god! I don't know what to make of that particular trend.

 

[Schwallanscher]

I think some people do hold Lee in the neighborhood of a god of some sort but, curiously, Forrest-themed tourist items seem to be starting to outsell Lee-themed tourist items. Forrest was decidedly not a god! I don't know what to make of that particular trend.

well, honestly, the guy with the small horns comes to mind, the one with the limp - but than he gotta have to share him with sherman

 

[diane]

well, honestly, the guy with the small horns comes to mind, the one with the limp - but than he gotta have to share him with sherman

Wonder how Sherman t-shirts are selling...

 

[Schwallanscher]

i'll take one of these

 

[Tin cup]

Slavery was not illegal in that time frame. It took 4 years for your today's conclusion.

Well, it was illegal in some States, and in England, Europe, and elsewhere. Slaveocracy fire-eaters were just too blind to see into the future, and figure out a better solution. They were not going to change for anybody, let alone for themselves!

Kevin Dally

 

[John Winn]

I think some people do hold Lee in the neighborhood of a god of some sort but, curiously, Forrest-themed tourist items seem to be starting to outsell Lee-themed tourist items. Forrest was decidedly not a god! I don't know what to make of that particular trend.

Well, he might fit in with one of the Greek or Roman ones and could be seen as a little old testament or Allah-like I suppose; smite the infidels, take slaves, and all that.

 

[Rebforever]

Well, it was illegal in some States, and in England, Europe, and elsewhere. Slaveocracy fire-eaters were just too blind to see into the future, and figure out a better solution. They were not going to change for anybody, let alone for themselves!

Kevin Dally

Why should they? Wanting their freedom from an intrusive government would mean something!

 

[Northern Light]

These days it's getting hard to find a hero who can last very long much less someone to deify (figuratively or literally). MLK, JFK, and Mother Teresa have all been slammed repeatedly. We've become distrustful and part of that is almost a cult of investigative reporting and dirt digging of anybody in the spotlight for long. I think, in the U.S. anyway, deification by the masses is likely a thing of the past but I admit when it comes to human nature I'm a pessimist.

Lee was a great general and an honorable man in my opinion but he also made mistakes and had flaws - especially if we judge by today's standards - and these days that gets you knocked off your pedestal by most. Not being a religious type I try not to deify anything or anybody so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak.

It is a very odd quirk of human nature that seeks to find heroes, and then seeks to destroy their heroes' credibility by finding naughtiness in their past. It is very curious, as if we cannot accept that someone can looked up to or admired, but has to be destroyed because they were not perfect.

 

[Northern Light]

Well, he might fit in with one of the Greek or Roman ones and could be seen as a little old testament or Allah-like I suppose; smite the infidels, take slaves, and all that.

Everyone really wishes that they could be like Forrest; unruly, unorthodox, and unrepentant, and unusually good at what he did. That's why pirates are popular, as well.

 

[C. Kelp]

You are certainly entitled to your views. I am simply not sure what denying Lee's obvious Christianity is supposed to accomplish. I fear that you will never understand Lee though I hope you can learn to accept his obvious strategic and tactical abilities. His ability to inspire the affection and devotion of his men never ceases to amaze me.

my point is that lee is almost always described as "a great Christian". who else is ? why is that always thrown in with lee ? what has he done to exemplify jesus's way ? the bible was used to sanction slavery and part of the lost cause tenets is that africans were better off being converted and protected by a christian society . lee was a man and flawed and was no more christian than anyone else and in my opinion much less. that does not mean he was not a good man and i am starting to understand just how conflicted he was. but that also spills over into his military career to no good ends. as for reconstruction , i am still waiting on anything he did to help reunion except keep quiet which was probably hard for him.
someone brought up forrest. that is a good example. he founded the kkk (supposedly) an organization that promotes christianity, but are they christian ?