Stonewall Predestination and motivation

[dixieland1861]

I'm sorry if this question has already been discussed, but I was just contemplating about Jackson's calm during battle and his strong belief that whatever happens is predestined. That belief made him calm when he came under fire and let him also forgive the poor soldier who was unfortunate enough to wound him (which ultimately even lead to his death). Probably many of us know his famous quote:
"My religious belief teaches me that I am as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time of my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to always be ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave."

My question is:
Why was Jackson motivated to fight if he believed that no matter what man does, the Lord has already set the fate of everything? Why fighting if nothing can be achieved, nothing can be changed? And even if he saw himself as an instrument of the Lord's will, he must have thought that his opponents were also. So why for example hurrying his "Foot cavalry" when the outcome was already set?
To me this is a contradiction. What do you think?

I believe Jacksons faith is what led him to be so good in battle. Remember Jackson wouldnt even tell anybody about the birth of his daughter casue he believed god would take her away from him. He also believed God was on the confederates side and if you look at it the south had more christians than the north.

 

[M.Warren]

I would imagine that even someone who believed in predestination knew that you had to 'live' your life otherwise it would be like thinking, ' I am not going to eat. If God wants me to live He will keep me alive without food.'

Good point but people that believe this still look both ways before crossing traffic. The belief is that God only places on you what you can handle. You're destiny may be laid out but you must do your part in allowing it to come to pass. I think what he thought was if he were to die it was Gods will. Nothing he could do would change it so his part was to do the best he could to achieve his intended result. Great posts and great thread!

 

[Allie]

I believe Jacksons faith is what led him to be so good in battle. Remember Jackson wouldnt even tell anybody about the birth of his daughter casue he believed god would take her away from him. He also believed God was on the confederates side and if you look at it the south had more christians than the north.

Where are you getting that statistic? Given that most people of the time were at least nominally Christian and there were far more Northerners than Southerners, I would be surprised if that were true.

 

[dixieland1861]

Look at the Generals from the south Lee, Jackson very devout christians and as southerners we are raised differnt than they were up north or thats what i believe. If im wrong im wrong

 

[M.Warren]

I believe Jacksons faith is what led him to be so good in battle. Remember Jackson wouldnt even tell anybody about the birth of his daughter casue he believed god would take her away from him. He also believed God was on the confederates side and if you look at it the south had more christians than the north.

I agree that Jackson thought God was on the Souths side. Im not sure about the amount of Christians in the North vs the South. I do know there were other religions in the North that weren't as numerous in the South. I don't know enough about it to even take a guess on that one.

 

[Allie]

Look at the Generals from the south Lee, Jackson very devout christians and as southerners we are raised differnt than they were up north or thats what i believe. If im wrong im wrong

From the North, you've got Joshua Chamberlain, a devout Congregationalist who went through seminary school in preparation for the ministry. His letters to his wife are every bit as religious as Jackson's. And Lew Wallace, the author of Ben Hur.

The University of Virginia census data page should be able to make reports on churches North and South, I'll have a look.

 

[FarawayFriend]

I believe Jacksons faith is what led him to be so good in battle. Remember Jackson wouldnt even tell anybody about the birth of his daughter casue he believed god would take her away from him. He also believed God was on the confederates side and if you look at it the south had more christians than the north.

Where are you getting that statistic? Given that most people of the time were at least nominally Christian and there were far more Northerners than Southerners, I would be surprised if that were true.

I agree that Jackson thought God was on the Souths side. Im not sure about the amount of Christians in the North vs the South. I do know there were other religions in the North that weren't as numerous in the South. I don't know enough about it to even take a guess on that one.

If you look into the thesis I found, it is said that christian faith probably played a more important role to the Southerners than to the Northern Generals. So maybe this is not a question of how many there were, but how strongly they believed.

 

[M.Warren]

If you look into the thesis I found, it is said that christian faith probably played a more important role to the Southerners than to the Northern Generals. So maybe this is not a question of how many there were, but how strongly they believed.

In a overall since, maybe. Thats something I've never really thought of looking into but a great question. I think you just decided my next area of study, FarawayFriend.

 

[Private Watkins]

I believe Jacksons faith is what led him to be so good in battle. Remember Jackson wouldnt even tell anybody about the birth of his daughter casue he believed god would take her away from him. He also believed God was on the confederates side and if you look at it the south had more christians than the north.

That would seem to be a really hard statement to support... especially when you just consider the raw numbers of Northern population versus Southern, not to mention the importance of religion to 19th century America in general - North, South, East & West...

 

[Allie]

This map doesn't necessarily give an accurate representation of religiousness as a whole, since it says nothing about the size of congregations - however, in a pre large-screen TV world, those differences are probably less significant than they would be today. A church would naturally limit its own size.

This shows the number of churches per population by state, with darker states having more churches per capita. Looking at the numbers, the darkest states have about one per 500 and the lightest about one per 1300.

As you can see it's not as simple as the North versus the South. Louisiana has unexpectedly few churches per person - possibly this is due to large parish churches.

 

[Jamieva]

Look at the Generals from the south Lee, Jackson very devout christians and as southerners we are raised differnt than they were up north or thats what i believe. If im wrong im wrong

Key word believe. There's no facts in there. The north was not a bunch of godless heathens

 

[M.Warren]

This map doesn't necessarily give an accurate representation of religiousness as a whole, since it says nothing about the size of congregations - however, in a pre large-screen TV world, those differences are probably less significant than they would be today. A church would naturally limit its own size.

This shows the number of churches per population by state, with darker states having more churches per capita. Looking at the numbers, the darkest states have about one per 500 and the lightest about one per 1300.

View attachment 72528

As you can see it's not as simple as the North versus the South. Louisiana has unexpectedly few churches per person - possibly this is due to large parish churches.

Great info, Allie. I know that in NC and TN, you can't walk 30ft without running into a church or bank. There are 4 churches within a mile of my house and they're all pre 20th century.

Key word believe. There's no facts in there. The north was not a bunch of godless heathens

I don't think anyone was even implying that Jamieva. I know I had no intention of it personally and didn't get that feeling from anyone else's posts. You're correct the North was not a bunch of Godless heathens.

 

[Allie]

Since we're talking about Jackson, a Presbyterian, here's the same map for Presbyterians only. This does not support a theory that more Southerners than Northerners were Christians of the same variety Jackson was. He would have been more likely to find a compatible church in Ohio than in his own state. There was a Presbyterian church per 3707 people in Ohio, per 5504 in Virginia.

 

[M.Warren]

Since we're talking about Jackson, a Presbyterian, here's the same map for Presbyterians only. This does not support a theory that more Southerners than Northerners were Christians of the same variety Jackson was. He would have been more likely to find a compatible church in Ohio than in his own state. There was a Presbyterian church per 3707 people in Ohio, per 5504 in Virginia.

View attachment 72529

Thats what I was referring to by my earlier "different religions" comment. You'd typically find more Presbyterian faith based churches in the North and probably more Baptist faith based churches in the South. Thats just from my limited understanding of it and I wouldn't swear to either. From what I've seen in NC, you'll find 10 Baptist churches for every One Methodist, or Lutheran church. I don't know enough about each faith to know if that would make any difference and don't dare take a guess that may insult someone.

 

[Allie]

Thats what I was referring to by my earlier "different religions" comment. You'd typically find more Presbyterian faith based churches in the North and probably more Baptist faith based churches in the South. Thats just from my limited understanding of it and I wouldn't swear to either.

Definitely - Georgia in particular had more Baptists. However, neither Lee nor Jackson, the two Southern Generals mentioned by Dixieland1861, were Baptists. Jackson was a Presbyterian, and Lee was Episcopalian.

In response to the simple question, Which side had more Christians, the Union or the Confederacy, there's really no contest. Take the per population out, and the North had far more churches in absolute numbers.

 

[dixieland1861]

Well i didnt mean to say then north was godless its just what i believed and now you guys corrected me and i can see i wasnt right and thank you allie for informing me

 

[28thNewYork]

I was raised Lutheran and graduated from a Vincentian college having studied Thomistic philosophy. Been married to a Catholic, a Methodist and a Baptist. My children are Episcopalian. I'm still trying to figure this out.

 

[hrobalabama]

Theologically, it is a very complicated subject. Practically speaking it is even more complicated. The doctrine of Election and Foreknowledge is not the same as Fatalism. I believe Jackson had a Spiritual Awakening that led to his everyday behavior,
whether in battle or not.

 

[dlofting]

What did the Calvinist say after he tripped and fell down the stairs ??

I'm glad that's over with !!

 

[kevikens]

Perhaps he found it comforting to believe that all the bloodshed and death was part of a Divine plan and he could exculpate himself from responsibility by explaining that he was just part of an inexorable working out of the Divine will. My experience is that when the bottom falls out of the tub humans prefer to see it as part of the inexplicable workings of an inscrutable Supreme Being rather than from anything they might be responsible for.