Grant About Grant

[Rebforever]

I thought we decided to blame Meade for that? Could be Longstreet ticked off Lee and caused Pickett's Charge! Those charges were not the best decisions either general made but there it is.

Nope. Grant called the attack according to Porter. Half way down 2nd para.

https://archive.org/stream/campaigningwith01portgoog#page/n218/mode/2up

 

[diane]

Nope. Grant called the attack according to Porter. Half way down 2nd para.

https://archive.org/stream/campaigningwith01portgoog#page/n218/mode/2up

That's so, all right. I think it might have been the same thing that led him to attack the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania so heavily - very similar. Seemed like a good idea at the time! He felt just one more good push...and they'd have it! Ok, another...just one more, boys... Then we have Hood in Tennessee... That's not uncommon in a general to want something so badly he fools himself into believing he commands supermen who can do anything he orders.

 

[Rebforever]

That's so, all right. I think it might have been the same thing that led him to attack the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania so heavily - very similar. Seemed like a good idea at the time! He felt just one more good push...and they'd have it! Ok, another...just one more, boys... Then we have Hood in Tennessee... That's not uncommon in a general to want something so badly he fools himself into believing he commands supermen who can do anything he orders.

If one would look at Lee's defenses at Spotsylvania, one can see a resemblance of the "V" defense which he perfected at North Anna that held Grant in check. However, Grant lost his opportunity to defeat Lee, Wilderness and Spotsylvania, by his own mistakes of underestimating his adversary. IMO

 

[diane]

If one would look at Lee's defenses at Spotsylvania, one can see a resemblance of the "V" defense which he perfected at North Anna that held Grant in check. However, Grant lost his opportunity to defeat Lee, Wilderness and Spotsylvania, by his own mistakes of underestimating his adversary. IMO

I'm not sure Grant ever really underestimated Lee but he might have overestimated his own men. He did have the opportunity to exploit a mistake of Lee's, pulling back Ewell's artillery, but the hole was plugged toot-sweet! Not an auspicious beginning, either - as Barlow noted, it was raining and there was not a wink of light, besides he didn't know which way was which. He asked a courier if there was anything out in that 'Egyptian darkness' he ought to know about before he marched his men off, like a bottomless pit!

 

[ole]

It has been advanced by many, that Grant's role as GnC was limited to his telling Meade and Burnside where he wanted their armies to go, and let them figure out how.

I don't believe he never took personal charge, but we do attribute movements to Grant which were delegated to Meade.

 

[Rebforever]

I'm not sure Grant ever really underestimated Lee but he might have overestimated his own men. He did have the opportunity to exploit a mistake of Lee's, pulling back Ewell's artillery, but the hole was plugged toot-sweet! Not an auspicious beginning, either - as Barlow noted, it was raining and there was not a wink of light, besides he didn't know which way was which. He asked a courier if there was anything out in that 'Egyptian darkness' he ought to know about before he marched his men off, like a bottomless pit!

Barlow had gotten around Lee's right flank and was ready to make his move and was called back to join the frontal attack. That was one huge mistake for Grant and maybe Grant didn't know about it.

 

[James N.]

Great comment. Just one little quibble -- I think that photo of young Grant and young Hays was from their cadet days at West Point.

I actually think it may have been taken at Jefferson Barracks or some other duty station, but the uniforms they're wearing are those of the Regular Army and NOT those of West Point Cadets. Since it's the era of the Mexican War, I didn't bother to elaborate.

 

[diane]

Barlow had gotten around Lee's right flank and was ready to make his move and was called back to join the frontal attack. That was one huge mistake for Grant and maybe Grant didn't know about it.

I'm not sure he really knew what Upton's whole plan actually was. Think he and Meade were going to conduct a general assault along the whole of the line, but Upton convinced him the Muleshoe was vulnerable. I'm really not convinced Grant understood Upton's concept for what it was. Part of what makes me think that was Grant didn't call off the assault until line officers began to tell him the fighting was so insane the men were starting to lose it.

 

[cash]

I'm not sure Grant ever really underestimated Lee but he might have overestimated his own men. He did have the opportunity to exploit a mistake of Lee's, pulling back Ewell's artillery, but the hole was plugged toot-sweet! Not an auspicious beginning, either - as Barlow noted, it was raining and there was not a wink of light, besides he didn't know which way was which. He asked a courier if there was anything out in that 'Egyptian darkness' he ought to know about before he marched his men off, like a bottomless pit!

Both Grant and Lee underestimated each other--at first. They each thought the other built their reputations on poor opposition. When they finally saw each other in action up close, they gained appreciation for each other's acumen.

Grant misinterpreted what had happened at North Anna. When he saw the confederates didn't attack, he thought it must have been because the men were completely demoralized. He didn't realize it was because Lee was sick. Since he wasn't present in Lee's tent, it's reasonable for him to have concluded a demoralization of the confederate army instead of Lee being sick. After all, Lee still had corps commanders who in theory would be able to manage an attack. Little did Grant know, because he wasn't privy to that knowledge, that Lee didn't trust his corps commanders to be able to manage that attack.

Because of that misinterpretation, he felt attacking at Cold Harbor would succeed. Based on what he knew at the time, it was a reasonable assumption. The problem was that Meade and his corps commanders failed completely in their responsibility to plan the attack, coordinate the attack, and to conduct preattack reconnaissance. Grant told Meade that as soon as it was clear there was nothing to be gained to halt all attacks. Meade didn't do that, and finally Grant called a halt to the whole thing. What Grant ordered was an assault to break the confederate line. He didn't order the type of assault or any of the tactical details other than when to break it off. Meade was in command on the field all day at Cold Harbor. If we look at the battle in detail, it's a failure of Meade's, though Grant did mistakenly believe the confederates were demoralized and would break easily.

 

[Rebforever]

I'm not sure he really knew what Upton's whole plan actually was. Think he and Meade were going to conduct a general assault along the whole of the line, but Upton convinced him the Muleshoe was vulnerable. I'm really not convinced Grant understood Upton's concept for what it was. Part of what makes me think that was Grant didn't call off the assault until line officers began to tell him the fighting was so insane the men were starting to lose it.

He used the Upton method again at the Petersburg breakout. But with a lot more men.

 

[diane]

Both Grant and Lee underestimated each other--at first. They each thought the other built their reputations on poor opposition. When they finally saw each other in action up close, they gained appreciation for each other's acumen.

Grant misinterpreted what had happened at North Anna. When he saw the confederates didn't attack, he thought it must have been because the men were completely demoralized. He didn't realize it was because Lee was sick. Since he wasn't present in Lee's tent, it's reasonable for him to have concluded a demoralization of the confederate army instead of Lee being sick. After all, Lee still had corps commanders who in theory would be able to manage an attack. Little did Grant know, because he wasn't privy to that knowledge, that Lee didn't trust his corps commanders to be able to manage that attack.

Because of that misinterpretation, he felt attacking at Cold Harbor would succeed. Based on what he knew at the time, it was a reasonable assumption. The problem was that Meade and his corps commanders failed completely in their responsibility to plan the attack, coordinate the attack, and to conduct preattack reconnaissance. Grant told Meade that as soon as it was clear there was nothing to be gained to halt all attacks. Meade didn't do that, and finally Grant called a halt to the whole thing. What Grant ordered was an assault to break the confederate line. He didn't order the type of assault or any of the tactical details other than when to break it off. Meade was in command on the field all day at Cold Harbor. If we look at the battle in detail, it's a failure of Meade's, though Grant did mistakenly believe the confederates were demoralized and would break easily.

That's pretty much my understanding of Cold Harbor. I can understand that crash-n-burn a little easier than the Muleshoe, though. That's a new one to me about Grant's interpretation of why Lee didn't attack - sensible! Lee, in Grant's boots, might well have thought that, too. Lee really had a chance to do Grant a world of hurt and couldn't. Frustration would be an understatement! I had thought Grant wasn't aware of the opportunity he'd given Lee - and if that was so, it would be a rare lapse on his part. The Wilderness battles - Grant was under a huge amount of pressure all at once, responsible for everything. Lee was still only responsible for his little corner of the war, which was plenty.

 

[Specster]

It was on June 1. Grant was on his way to Bethesda Church and later to Cold Harbor.

Gee Cash, this is an epic event... you and I being on the same page on an issue....

 

[Specster]

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you

I dont think I am wrong, I never, am. Once I thought I was wrong but, upon further research, I found I was right. Seriously, I dont have the book in my possession but, I am pretty sure that the information regarding the reporters made its way to Grant the following morning and he had a good laugh upon hearing it. I am also confident that Sherman would have taken greater pleasure upon hearing the misfortune of the reporters, but I believe that was some time after the event.

 

[M E Wolf]

I had read a CW book some time ago, which I borrowed from the library and it had the story of how Grant had come across a teamster who was beating his horse with the butt end of the whip (Oach!!). Upon seeing this Grant told the man to lay off and, the teamster, not recognizing Grant, told him to mind his business. From what I recall Grant was pretty upset. He had the man lashed to a tree for many hours. More curious, as I recall, was that he went into battle shortly thereafter and many men - more men then in most battles (Union) man lost their lives. It seemed as if the event unleashed an unbridled anger in him perhaps resulting in the loss of an unusual quantum of death.

Does anyone recall the battle after this event with the Teamster? I believe the event is pretty well known. What happened after I believe, is open to speculation.

General R. E. Lee had a similar feeling towards horses if my memory serves me correctly. A similar incident where a horse was being unjustly whipped harshly, that his face became red with anger but, spoke controlled and ordered that man to stop beating the horse.

General Lee as well as General Grant, come across to me, as a fancier of horses myself, as a kindred spirit when it came to the horse.

M. E. Wolf

 

[M E Wolf]

There is also a story about Grant at West Point. He took a horse that was claimed to be untrainable and He trained it. I think he even set a high jumping record on the untrainable horse. He definitely set the record which stood for 25 years but I'm not sure if the horse I am talking about is the horse he set it on.

If memory serves me correctly, the horse you referred to was named "York." I believe the jumping record still remains 'intact.' It was set at the U.S. Military Academy known better as West Point. The horse named "York" said to have been so dangerous, it was to be destroyed. Cadet U.S. Grant though, against the warnings and disobedience to the Riding Master, managed to be astride on this horse and quickly able to have the horse preform the jumping gymnastics. The jump posts not high enough, two students (if memory serves me correctly, it might have been Longstreet and another future General, lifted the bar above their heads and Grant had "York" jump it clear to the shock of all witnessing it.

M. E. Wolf

Post Script:
"
Bit by bit Julia learned more about him. His brilliant horse-
manship at West Point was an old story, told first by Fred, then
by Longstreet and other officers who had watched his cavalry
maneuvers and high leaps with something approaching awe. It
was a profound disappointment to him that he had been appointed
to an infantry rather than a cavalry command, where he clearly
belonged. Julia was well aware that his special genius lay with
horses, and that although most of his academic work was undis-
tinguished, he was also brilliant in mathematics. "

REFERENCE: The General's Wife - The Life of Mrs. Ulysses S. Grant.

 

[M E Wolf]

I shall mention, that the U.S. Military Academy, known as West Point --still has a riding program there, to which Dressage, Jumping and such are offered--just not 'graded' in the same manner due to the mechanics of things now.

M. E. Wolf

 

[War Horse]

If memory serves me correctly, the horse you referred to was named "York." I believe the jumping record still remains 'intact.' It was set at the U.S. Military Academy known better as West Point. The horse named "York" said to have been so dangerous, it was to be destroyed. Cadet U.S. Grant though, against the warnings and disobedience to the Riding Master, managed to be astride on this horse and quickly able to have the horse preform the jumping gymnastics. The jump posts not high enough, two students (if memory serves me correctly, it might have been Longstreet and another future General, lifted the bar above their heads and Grant had "York" jump it clear to the shock of all witnessing it.

M. E. Wolf

Post Script:
"
Bit by bit Julia learned more about him. His brilliant horse-
manship at West Point was an old story, told first by Fred, then
by Longstreet and other officers who had watched his cavalry
maneuvers and high leaps with something approaching awe. It
was a profound disappointment to him that he had been appointed
to an infantry rather than a cavalry command, where he clearly
belonged. Julia was well aware that his special genius lay with
horses, and that although most of his academic work was undis-
tinguished, he was also brilliant in mathematics. "

REFERENCE: The General's Wife - The Life of Mrs. Ulysses S. Grant.

Great detail thank you very much. Although I am pretty sure the record was beaten. I will see if I can find it from a good source.

 

[M E Wolf]

Great detail thank you very much. Although I am pretty sure the record was beaten. I will see if I can find it from a good source.

I wouldn't be surprised if a jumping record hasn't been surpassed. But, as far as I've seen it held for 25 years. It might be, that the records stopped being recorded as these equestrian skills for military use left the battlefield when machines, e.g. autos, planes, trains and tanks took over.

What is interesting, is that Julia Dent (Mrs. General U.S. Grant) was an excellent equestrian herself and both enjoyed horses more than the ballroom.

Just some thoughts.
M. E. Wolf

 

[War Horse]

I wouldn't be surprised if a jumping record hasn't been surpassed. But, as far as I've seen it held for 25 years. It might be, that the records stopped being recorded as these equestrian skills for military use left the battlefield when machines, e.g. autos, planes, trains and tanks took over.

What is interesting, is that Julia Dent (Mrs. General U.S. Grant) was an excellent equestrian herself and both enjoyed horses more than the ballroom.

Just some thoughts.
M. E. Wolf

Yes. It's told Grant hated music of any kind. I hate auto spell.

 

[Specster]

Nope. Grant called the attack according to Porter. Half way down 2nd para.

https://archive.org/stream/campaigningwith01portgoog#page/n218/mode/2up

Longstreet was dead against Pickets charge and was one of the first in a command position to call it off.