Why did the Irish fight.

[Waterloo50]

I guess that most people would argue that the Irish didn't fight any harder than anyone else but General Sumner once quipped, 'If Irishmen ever ran from the field he would have to run as well.'

I have a few Irish ancestors that left Ireland in the 1800s and made their way over to the United States.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to get an overview of the kind of things that they may have experienced. Here's a few things that I found. It would be possible to write a thousand pages on the hardships experienced by the Irish but I think most people are aware of how the situation was back then.

I thought perhaps that if I wanted to look at the lives of the Irish then using something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a baseline would offer some explanation as to why they suffered. Here's a simplified list of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it can be applied to all people regardless of race and ethnicity. These 'Needs' are all basic human needs, we all require them.
The most vital need starts at number 1 on the list, without number 1 there is no survival.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


1. Biological and physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).

4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige). Maslow indicated that the need for respect or reputation is most important for children and adolescents and precedes real self-esteem or dignity.

5. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfilment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences. A desire "to become everything one is capable of becoming'

Even a simple search of the problems faced by Irish immigrants highlights the fact that even the most basic human needs were not being met.


The unsanitary conditions were breeding grounds for disease, particularly cholera. Sixty percent of the Irish children born in Boston during this period didn't live to see their sixth birthday. Adult Irish lived on average just six years after stepping off the boat onto American soil.

The Boston Committee of Internal Health studying the situation described the resulting Irish slum as "a perfect hive of human beings, without comforts and mostly without common necessaries; in many cases huddled together like brutes, without regard to age or sex or sense of decency. Under such circumstances self-respect, forethought, all the high and noble virtues soon die out, and sullen indifference and despair or disorder, intemperance and utter degradation reign supreme."

Over time the impact of living in squalid conditions along with starvation and high unemployment, it is no surprise to find that crime had increased by 400%.

I have only just scraped the surface of the deprivations that the Irish faced on a daily basis but coupled with all of the hard physical torment was the problem of anti Irish sentiment.

The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.

Militant anti-Catholics formed a third political party nicknamed the 'Know-Nothings' seeking to curtail Irish immigration and keep them from becoming naturalized Americans in order to prevent them from ever gaining any political power. The movement was most successful in Massachusetts which elected Know-Nothing candidates to every state-wide office in 1854, including governor. Throughout America, anti-Irish sentiment was becoming fashionable. Newspaper advertisements for jobs and housing in Boston, New York and other places now routinely ended with "Positively No Irish Need Apply."

So, my question is, what made the Irish fight, what was their incentive. Was it really as simple as a struggle for acceptance. Meagher is reported to have said that 'An Irish veteran could take his stand proudly by the side of the native-born, and will not fear to look him sternly in the face and tell him that he has been equal to him in his allegiance to the Constitution.

 

[Pat Young]

I guess that most people would argue that the Irish didn't fight any harder than anyone else but General Sumner once quipped, 'If Irishmen ever ran from the field he would have to run as well.'

I have a few Irish ancestors that left Ireland in the 1800s and made their way over to the United States.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to get an overview of the kind of things that they may have experienced. Here's a few things that I found. It would be possible to write a thousand pages on the hardships experienced by the Irish but I think most people are aware of how the situation was back then.

I thought perhaps that if I wanted to look at the lives of the Irish then using something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a baseline would offer some explanation as to why they suffered. Here's a simplified list of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it can be applied to all people regardless of race and ethnicity. These 'Needs' are all basic human needs, we all require them.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


1. Biological and physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).

4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige). Maslow indicated that the need for respect or reputation is most important for children and adolescents and precedes real self-esteem or dignity.

5. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfilment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences. A desire "to become everything one is capable of becoming'

Even a simple search of the problems faced by Irish immigrants highlights the fact that even the most basic human needs were not being met.


The unsanitary conditions were breeding grounds for disease, particularly cholera. Sixty percent of the Irish children born in Boston during this period didn't live to see their sixth birthday. Adult Irish lived on average just six years after stepping off the boat onto American soil.

The Boston Committee of Internal Health studying the situation described the resulting Irish slum as "a perfect hive of human beings, without comforts and mostly without common necessaries; in many cases huddled together like brutes, without regard to age or sex or sense of decency. Under such circumstances self-respect, forethought, all the high and noble virtues soon die out, and sullen indifference and despair or disorder, intemperance and utter degradation reign supreme."

Over time the impact of living in squalid conditions along with starvation and high unemployment, it is no surprise to find that crime had increased by 400%.

I have only just scraped the surface of the deprivations that the Irish faced on a daily basis but coupled with all of the hard physical torment was the problem of anti Irish sentiment.

The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.

Militant anti-Catholics formed a third political party nicknamed the 'Know-Nothings' seeking to curtail Irish immigration and keep them from becoming naturalized Americans in order to prevent them from ever gaining any political power. The movement was most successful in Massachusetts which elected Know-Nothing candidates to every state-wide office in 1854, including governor. Throughout America, anti-Irish sentiment was becoming fashionable. Newspaper advertisements for jobs and housing in Boston, New York and other places now routinely ended with "Positively No Irish Need Apply."

So, my question is, what made the Irish fight, what was their incentive. Was it really as simple as a struggle for acceptance. Meagher is reported to have said that 'An Irish veteran could take his stand proudly by the side of the native-born, and will not fear to look him sternly in the face and tell him that he has been equal to him in his allegiance to the Constitution.

The question when looking at enlistment of Irish immigrants always come down to who enlisted and when he enlisted. Irish immigrants had many difference reasons for enlisting, and those reasons changed over time. An long-settled immigrant enlisting in April, 1861 when there were often no bounties and not even a certainty of pay may have had considerably different motives from a new arrival enlisting in January 1865 who is offered $650 to serve, the equivalent of more than $10,000.

I have a short blog post on why Irish might have enlisted in 1861.
https://longislandwins.com/news/national/why-did-the-irish-fight-when-they-were-so-despised-2/

 

[Waterloo50]

The question when looking at enlistment of Irish immigrants always come down to who enlisted and when he enlisted. Irish immigrants had many difference reasons for enlisting, and those reasons changed over time. An long-settled immigrant enlisting in April, 1861 when there were often no bounties and not even a certainty of pay may have had considerably different motives from a new arrival enlisting in January 1865 who is offered $650 to serve, the equivalent of more than $10,000.

I have a short blog post on why Irish might have enlisted in 1861.
https://longislandwins.com/news/national/why-did-the-irish-fight-when-they-were-so-despised-2/

Thanks Pat, do you also have anything on the 'Know Nothings', I have only just heard about them. Who were the Know- Nothings, was it a Protestant movement?

 

[Pat Young]

Thanks Pat, do you also have anything on the 'Know Nothings', I have only just heard about them. Who were the Know- Nothings, was it a Protestant movement?

Oh my, do I have stuff on the Know Nothings!

I will post links to what I have written on them.

When Hatred of Immigrants Stopped the Washington Monument from Being Built

 

[Pat Young]

Some more articles in my Know Nothing series:

Inside the Mind of a Know Nothing

The Evolution of the Know Nothings

The Know Nothings Launch a Civil War Against Immigrant America

The Know Nothings: From Triumph to Collapse

The Lasting Impact of the Know Nothings on Immigrant America.

Lincoln, the Know Nothings, and Immigrant America.

 

[Pat Young]

Here is a funny incident involving a Know Nothing:

The Know Nothing Colonel and the Irish Soldier

 

[Pat Young]

My article on the Tigers discusses the Know Nothings in New Orleans:

The Irish Tigers From Louisiana

 

[rebel brit]

The unsanitary conditions were breeding grounds for disease, particularly cholera. Sixty percent of the Irish children born in Boston during this period didn't live to see their sixth birthday. Adult Irish lived on average just six years after stepping off the boat onto American soil.

That's a shocking statistic and one I wasn't aware of.
Great thread and I'm looking forward to following.

 

[Pat Young]

That's a shocking statistic and one I wasn't aware of.
Great thread and I'm looking forward to following.

If you are interested in Irish community life in the worst Irish slum, the Five Points, here is my article on it:

https://longislandwins.com/columns/immigrants-civil-war/five-points-on-the-edge-of-the-draft-riots/

 

[Waterloo50]

Some more articles in my Know Nothing series:

Inside the Mind of a Know Nothing

The Evolution of the Know Nothings

The Know Nothings Launch a Civil War Against Immigrant America

The Know Nothings: From Triumph to Collapse

The Lasting Impact of the Know Nothings on Immigrant America.

Lincoln, the Know Nothings, and Immigrant America.

I hadn't even considered this as a possibility but reading it makes sense.
American Know Nothingism had its roots in anti-Catholic propaganda promulgated by the English crown from the days of Queen Elizabeth and transmitted by evangelical preachers in every corner of the British colonies.

 

[Waterloo50]

If you are interested in Irish community life in the worst Irish slum, the Five Points, here is my article on it:

https://longislandwins.com/columns/immigrants-civil-war/five-points-on-the-edge-of-the-draft-riots/

Pat, I appreciate that this is a massive subject but why was there a fear of Catholicism in the United States, I read that there was a concern that American politics could have been affected but what were people really worried about, what changes would Catholicism have made to the American way of life?

 

[Pat Young]

Pat, I appreciate that this is a massive subject but why was there a fear of Catholicism in the United States, I read that there was a concern that American politics could have been affected but what were people really worried about, what changes would Catholicism have made to the American way of life?

I think that there was a hereditary fear of Catholicism dating from the 1600s among British settlers in what would become the United States. Much of it was based on the Elizabethan propaganda. Funny, of course, because in many cases their great grandpaernts had been Catholics!

Anti-Catholicism was particularly strong in New England, where Puritans were constantly looking to eradicate Catholic holdovers in religion. Christmas celebrations were banned largely for being "Popish."

Couple that with France as the feared colonial adversary in the 1700s.

In the British colonies at the time of the Revolution people still celebrated "Pope Day" (Guy Fawkes Day) when an effigy of the Pope was burned. Washington had to ban the Pope Day mobbing during the war.

During the years before the war, the US went through an Evangelical revival, invigorating the more anti-Catholic manifestation of Protestantism just as Catholic immigrants were arriving. Couple that antagonism from the ultra-religious was opposition from liberals who saw Catholics as antagonists in the struggles of 1848.

Note: The Know Nothings were not exclusively anti-Catholic. That was one motivator, but there were other factors at work as well.

 

[Waterloo50]

August 24, 1855 Lincoln wrote to Joshua F. Speed
I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we begin by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

 

[Waterloo50]

I think that there was a hereditary fear of Catholicism dating from the 1600s among British settlers

Thanks, things are starting to make sense, what I'm basically seeing is just the same old Catholic v Protestant arguments carried overseas from Britain, I would certainly agree that there was a hereditary fear from the 1600s born out of the reformation and the struggles that followed. I remember that we had a thread here at CWT on the subject of white Protestant slave owners, I can't recall what the outcome was on that particular thread but I do remember getting a sense that people believed that the slave owners were mostly protestant and that in some respects things like the Protestant Episcopal Church was evidence of that. I have absolutely no problem with people correcting me so I hope I don't offend anyone when I ask, would the Irish Catholics that fought for the Union have viewed the confederacy as a Protestant enemy, in other words, although equality and acceptance could be achieved by the Irish that fought for the Union was there also another reason, namely Catholics against Protestants.

 

[Pat Young]

Thanks, things are starting to make sense, what I'm basically seeing is just the same old Catholic v Protestant arguments carried overseas from Britain, I would certainly agree that there was a hereditary fear from the 1600s born out of the reformation and the struggles that followed. I remember that we had a thread here at CWT on the subject of white Protestant slave owners, I can't recall what the outcome was on that particular thread but I do remember getting a sense that people believed that the slave owners were mostly protestant and that in some respects things like the Protestant Episcopal Church was evidence of that. I have absolutely no problem with people correcting me so I hope I don't offend anyone when I ask, would the Irish Catholics that fought for the Union have viewed the confederacy as a Protestant enemy, in other words, although equality and acceptance could be achieved by the Irish that fought for the Union was there also another reason, namely Catholics against Protestants.

Recruiting appeals to the Irish in 1861 often compared slave owners to the English aristocracy in Ireland, but I don't recall any explicit mention of Protestantism.

 

[Waterloo50]

Recruiting appeals to the Irish in 1861 often compared slave owners to the English aristocracy in Ireland, but I don't recall any explicit mention of Protestantism.

That alone would have been reason enough for any Irishman to fight, free of charge probably.

 

[Pat Young]

Recruitment appeals also claimed that the British government was supporting the CSA so that the Civil War was a sort of proxy war against Britain.

 

[John Hartwell]

Of course, the Know-Nothings had scant love for Protestant immigrants, either, though anti-Catholicism certainly exacerbated it. Xenophobia was the driving force.

 

[RobertP]

I guess that most people would argue that the Irish didn't fight any harder than anyone else but General Sumner once quipped, 'If Irishmen ever ran from the field he would have to run as well.'

I have a few Irish ancestors that left Ireland in the 1800s and made their way over to the United States.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to get an overview of the kind of things that they may have experienced. Here's a few things that I found. It would be possible to write a thousand pages on the hardships experienced by the Irish but I think most people are aware of how the situation was back then.

I thought perhaps that if I wanted to look at the lives of the Irish then using something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a baseline would offer some explanation as to why they suffered. Here's a simplified list of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it can be applied to all people regardless of race and ethnicity. These 'Needs' are all basic human needs, we all require them.
The most vital need starts at number 1 on the list, without number 1 there is no survival.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs.


1. Biological and physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).

4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige). Maslow indicated that the need for respect or reputation is most important for children and adolescents and precedes real self-esteem or dignity.

5. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfilment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences. A desire "to become everything one is capable of becoming'

Even a simple search of the problems faced by Irish immigrants highlights the fact that even the most basic human needs were not being met.


The unsanitary conditions were breeding grounds for disease, particularly cholera. Sixty percent of the Irish children born in Boston during this period didn't live to see their sixth birthday. Adult Irish lived on average just six years after stepping off the boat onto American soil.

The Boston Committee of Internal Health studying the situation described the resulting Irish slum as "a perfect hive of human beings, without comforts and mostly without common necessaries; in many cases huddled together like brutes, without regard to age or sex or sense of decency. Under such circumstances self-respect, forethought, all the high and noble virtues soon die out, and sullen indifference and despair or disorder, intemperance and utter degradation reign supreme."

Over time the impact of living in squalid conditions along with starvation and high unemployment, it is no surprise to find that crime had increased by 400%.

I have only just scraped the surface of the deprivations that the Irish faced on a daily basis but coupled with all of the hard physical torment was the problem of anti Irish sentiment.

The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.

Militant anti-Catholics formed a third political party nicknamed the 'Know-Nothings' seeking to curtail Irish immigration and keep them from becoming naturalized Americans in order to prevent them from ever gaining any political power. The movement was most successful in Massachusetts which elected Know-Nothing candidates to every state-wide office in 1854, including governor. Throughout America, anti-Irish sentiment was becoming fashionable. Newspaper advertisements for jobs and housing in Boston, New York and other places now routinely ended with "Positively No Irish Need Apply."

So, my question is, what made the Irish fight, what was their incentive. Was it really as simple as a struggle for acceptance. Meagher is reported to have said that 'An Irish veteran could take his stand proudly by the side of the native-born, and will not fear to look him sternly in the face and tell him that he has been equal to him in his allegiance to the Constitution.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

That alone would have been reason enough for any Irishman to fight, free of charge probably.

That seemed to be Buster's rational.

Sergeant 'Buster' Kilrain: Well, if he's an angel, all right then… But he **** well must be a killer angel. Colonel, darling, you're a lovely man. I see a vast great difference between us, yet I admire you, lad. You're an idealist, praise be. The truth is, Colonel… There is no "divine spark". There's many a man alive no more of value than a dead dog. Believe me. When you've seen them hang each other the way I have back in the Old Country. Equality? What I'm fighting for is to prove I'm a better man than many of them. Where have you seen this "divine spark" in operation, Colonel? Where have you noted this magnificent equality? No two things on Earth are equal or have an equal chance. Not a leaf, not a tree. There's many a man worse than me, and some better… But I don't think race or country matters a ****. What matters, Colonel… Is justice. Which is why I'm here. I'll be treated as I deserve, not as my father deserved. I'm Kilrain… And I **** all gentlemen. There is only one aristocracy… And that is right here. [points to his head]

Sergeant 'Buster' Kilrain: And that's why we've got to win this war.

https://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/sergeant-buster-kilrain-on-race-and-equality/​