Whose troops displayed more discipline?

CavRTO

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 16, 2021
Location
10 miles from Yuengling Brewery
Since joining the forum and expanding my ACW library it's opened my eyes much beyond the cookie cutter attempts at explaining the ACW we've all experienced. I'm of the opinion that the confederate soldiers displayed better discipline in the ranks than their northern counterparts. More specifically their treatment of the civilians they encountered. There was more emphasis put on winning the hearts and minds.
 
You'd think that. But rebels could cause civilians quite a bit of grief, especially in the heavily contested areas of the nation. Troops from the U.S. Regular Army stand out, on both sides, for their discipline.
I agree with you about the RA troops being more disciplined, but they were a small contingent vis a vis the conscripts and volunteers.
 
Honestly would think the level of discipline displayed could vary a great deal from battle to battle depending on how exhausted, hungry, drilled, motivated, discouraged, reduced in numbers, green, experienced, sick, etc. the troops might be.

Regarding civilians, factors would be - were you marching through friendly territory where civilians offered you food and drink and pretty girls smiled at you, or were you insulted, lied to, misdirected at every opportunity and refused aid of any sort.

All that said, have to agree the U.S. Regulars were likely the best.
 
The overwhelming majority of Union troops were volunteer troops, just like the Confederates, and were more alike than otherwise. BUT, the federal troops had particular advantages, not just materially and numerically, but in the application of discipline akin if not as stringent, as the regular army.

Gen. John A. Logan of the USA, noted of the United States volunteers:

1697513285997.png


In contrast, General D.H. Hill, in his popular speech to Confederate veterans post-war noted the lack of such discipline and its effects among the Confederates in the long run:

1697513013794.png


1697513072040.png


General Henry T. Douglas, US Army (who as a young man was a Confederate staff officer for Generals Magruder, A.P. Hill, and as a principal engineer at Richmond and in the Trans-Miss. Dept.), noted to his confederate comrades in the "Confederate Veteran" magazine:

1697514508389.png

1697514600234.png


Col. Robert Tansill, CSA, among others, commented that the mode of organization of the Confederate Army aside, the "reorganization" of 1862, suppressed anything like a regular discipline in the Confederate service at the company level, and to its detriment in the long term:
1697513501021.png

1697513552817.png


This lack of "machine soldier" shoulder-to-shoulder discipline among the Confederate troops was not necessarily an accident.

At Chancellorsville, Walter H. Taylor of Lee's staff was impressed by the individuality of the Confderates in action, as opposed to the regular or "machine soldier:"

1697513913803.png

1697513970099.png


General Hooker, who was defeated at Chancellorsville, later told the Congressional committee that what is described above was to him a form of "discipline" in battle, even if not that of the regular or machine-soldier:

1697516910994.png


In 1861, Mary Chesnut recorded a discussion with President Davis, commander-in-chief of the Confederate army, in which he explained his view that the Confederate army would need to foster other attributes than simple military discipline to breast the odds arrayed against them:

1697513776535.png


A young Maryland lad recalled of the two armies marching through his town before the battle of Sharpsburg, of the Confederates:

1697516506661.png


A Union prisoner described the troops of Hood's Army of Tennessee in late 1864:

"In the line distinction as to apparel, between the officers and the men, was nearly obliterated. Regimental discipline seemed loose, and privates appeared to comment upon the commands of their immediate officers with an unction and broadness of diction which was always been native to the taste and instinct of the highly polished, intelligent, and asthetick lower orders of the South, surnamed the sunny..."

As regards treatment of civilians, anecdotally, my second great grandfather, a veteran of Jeb Stuart's cavalry, and Fauquier Country, VA resident, informed his youngest son (who passed away in 1993) that both northern and southern soldiers in northern Virginia were equally troublesome to the country people and their horses, stock, and foodstuffs; officially and unofficially. And deserters and bandits of both armies were downright dangerous.

Ebeneezer Ball of Leesburg, VA, mentions something on the same line:

1697515226680.png


While federal troops might destroy crops or confiscate them, the Confederates could do the same. Late in the war the Confederates, in a failed attempt to reduce the necessity of direct confiscations by the army, established the the tax-in-kind, or "tithing" laws for farm goods late in the war:


1697515629636.png


There were many official complaints of this tax and the manner of collecting the farm goods, etc., particularly at the county level:

1697515699786.png
 
Last edited:
I think it's been suggested the Confederates ultimately lost at Shiloh and Cedar Creek because their troops stopped to loot the Union camps despite urging from their officers to continue to fight. Discipline and bravery are not the same things of course, but the tendency of the Southern soldiers to go "on their own hook" in these cases proved fatal to their cause.
 
Joseph Glatthaar is a respected historian who has commented at some length about the lack of discipline in the Army of Northern Virginia. The lack of discipline was displayed by the men in the ranks, and by the officers. I don't recall that he has made any direct comparisons with discipline in any northern army, but it hurt the ANV.

See Glatthaar's General Lee's Army: From Victory to Collapse.
 
Last edited:
We have had these comments before concerning fire discipline and training. The regular troops were used to the discipline and the limitations imposed on them. The volunteers, on the other hand, were new to all this. As in all armies of volunteers or conscripts, there are some who accept these limitations and get on with the job, but there are a number who don't. Ther are stories of troublemakers 'making good' come the battle but they are not that common. Do NOT quote Pte Hook from 'Zulu' . That was cinema. In real life, he was one of the better soldiers in the 24th - exemplary!

Anyone who has served in the regular army and joined volunteer reserves (TA, National Guard, etc) on leaving knows the difference. In the regulars, you live it, 24/7 - even if it is more self-discipline these days. The same applies to war volunteers and conscripts, they have no idea of what being a soldier is until the training and the drilling starts. It does depend on your Squad Corporal or Drill Sergeant.

BTW - there is a difference in approach to recruit training with the US approach - Drill Sergeant (FMJ) - and the British Army - Squad Corporal - but they are both mean barstewards to the recruits.
 
BTW - there is a difference in approach to recruit training with the US approach - Drill Sergeant (FMJ) - and the British Army - Squad Corporal - but they are both mean barstewards to the recruits.

My understanding is recruit training in the ACW mostly pertaining to marching and was the responsibility regimental commanders. It looked nothing like 20th century basic training.

West Pointers did have a reputation for stricter discipline when commanding regiments.

The small regular army also meant both armies sorely lacked the experienced NCOs who could whip greenhorns recruits into shape and steer greenhorn officers.
 
I think a lot of unit discipline came from 2 things. 1. The Command,,,some commanders forbid troops from drinking alcohol, punished them if soldiers were caught stealing civilian livestock, forbade units from removing fences to burn as firewood, etc,,while other commanders,, well, we know how they operated

2nd. Where the units came from. I have several ancestors who enlisted from very different areas, saw the war differently, and soldiered differently. One in particular came from a very patriotic community deeply steeped in American history with many members whose lineage, including mine, goes back to the revolution. Other ancestors, such as my ggg grandfather Charlie Breen, a rough and tumble Irish fighter who lived in 5 points in NYC, was a gang member, and thought itd be fun to join the war,,he drank with the 79th NY Highlanders, and once in a while a battle would break out,, but they were about as wild, and unruly as troops could be, even committing mutiny and refusing to fight. 2 VERY different views on how to be soldier, in the same army.
 
The question about whose troops displayed more discipline is very broad, leaving aside a general agreement that regulars were more disciplined than volunteers. It might be more appropriate to focus on specific units or armies to find an answer. For example, the troops of the eastern Army of the Potomac were considered to be better disciplined than those of the western Army of the Tennessee. Or Joe Wheeler and Ashby Turner were known to be lax disciplinarians towards their cavalry commands.
 
I think a lot of unit discipline came from 2 things. 1. The Command,,,some commanders forbid troops from drinking alcohol, punished them if soldiers were caught stealing civilian livestock, forbade units from removing fences to burn as firewood, etc,,while other commanders,, well, we know how they operated

2nd. Where the units came from. I have several ancestors who enlisted from very different areas, saw the war differently, and soldiered differently. One in particular came from a very patriotic community deeply steeped in American history with many members whose lineage, including mine, goes back to the revolution. Other ancestors, such as my ggg grandfather Charlie Breen, a rough and tumble Irish fighter who lived in 5 points in NYC, was a gang member, and thought itd be fun to join the war,,he drank with the 79th NY Highlanders, and once in a while a battle would break out,, but they were about as wild, and unruly as troops could be, even committing mutiny and refusing to fight. 2 VERY different views on how to be soldier, in the same army.
I just read a story last night about the 79th NY Highlanders. Were they the only unit to go into battle wearing kilts🫡🙂?
 
My
I just read a story last night about the 79th NY Highlanders. Were they the only unit to go into battle wearing kilts🫡🙂?
ggg grandfather, Charlie Breen actually had tartan trousers when fighting, as the kilts were found impractical. At least that's how it was told to us as kids,,
 
I just read a story last night about the 79th NY Highlanders. Were they the only unit to go into battle wearing kilts🫡🙂?
I'm under the impression that they only did that a few times. They did have pants made from the same material as the kilts, and general issue pants later on. The pants were used for non-dress situations.
 
I can only speak to the Confederate invasion of Pennsylvania in summer 1863. I think their discipline was due more to the typically tight rein enforced by their officer corps rather than from the individual soldiers themselves. If the latter found any unguarded supply of whiskey along their path, discipline immediately broke down. Also, since they were marching in enemy territory, any stray soldier risked capture (and in some cases death from bushwhackers). Their army had made no friends among the locals while confiscating goods and farm animals at every turn. I will say that most Confederate soldiers overlooked any intended slights from the northern women or were bemused by them but have the impression that Union soldiers could be more vindictive in the reverse situation, but then again southern women had reason to be more intensely bitter because they had more first-hand experience with war's calamities. Union soldiers were likewise very cognizant of the bushwhacking threat whenever they moved through Mosby's territory of northern Virginia. While in enemy territory, self-discipline was essential to self-preservation.
 
I think a lot of unit discipline came from 2 things. 1. The Command,,,some commanders forbid troops from drinking alcohol, punished them if soldiers were caught stealing civilian livestock, forbade units from removing fences to burn as firewood, etc,,while other commanders,, well, we know how they operated

Getting drunk or looting houses is one thing.

Taking fence rails for firewood or livestock for dinner would have imposed hardship upon the civilians affected, but seem reasonable confiscation for the war effort when operating in enemy territory.
 

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top