Who's aggression?

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byron ed

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...3 members of my lineage that were induced to fight in Mr Lincoln's illegal aggression...
Let's talk about inducement and aggression then.

Here's what happened before Lincoln had even arrived in Washington; before any Federal military force was raised that could even pose an "illegal aggression" to the white South.

December 27, 1860—South Carolina seizes Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney, a Federal schooner and other Federal property.
December 30, 1860—South Carolina seizes the Federal Arsenal at Charleston.
December 31—South Carolina seizes the U.S. post office and the Customs house in Charleston.
January 3—Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski to prevent U.S. troops from garrisoning it.
January 4—Alabama seizes the US arsenal at Mount Vernon.
January 5—Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.
January 6—Florida seizes the Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7—Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 9, 1861—In Charleston, southern guns fire on the Star of the West as it attempts to re-supply Fort Sumter.
January 10, 1861—Florida demands the surrender of Fort Pickens (refused).
February 18, 1861—Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as president of the Confederacy.

After all that:
February 23, 1861—President-Elect Abraham Lincoln merely arrives in Washington.

And some weeks later:
March 4, 1861—Lincoln is inaugurated as president of the United States.

And several weeks later:
April 15, 1861—Lincoln calls for for a 75,000-man militia for a three month enlistment. This is an aggressive invasion force?
 
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Norm53

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Let's talk about inducement and aggression then.

Here's what happened before Lincoln had even arrived in Washington; before any Federal military force was raised that could even pose an "illegal aggression" to the white South.

December 27, 1860—South Carolina seizes Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney, a Federal schooner and other Federal property.
December 30, 1860—South Carolina seizes the Federal Arsenal at Charleston.
December 31—South Carolina seizes the U.S. post office and the Customs house in Charleston.
January 3—Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski to prevent U.S. troops from garrisoning it.
January 4—Alabama seizes the US arsenal at Mount Vernon.
January 5—Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.
January 6—Florida seizes the Apalachicola arsenal.
January 7—Florida seizes Fort Marion.
January 9, 1861—In Charleston, southern guns fire on the Star of the West as it attempts to re-supply Fort Sumter.
January 10, 1861—Florida demands the surrender of Fort Pickens (refused).
February 18, 1861—Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as president of the Confederacy.

After all that:
February 23, 1861—President-Elect Abraham Lincoln merely arrives in Washington.

And some weeks later:
March 4, 1861—Lincoln is inaugurated as president of the United States.

And several weeks later:
April 15, 1861—Lincoln calls for for a 75,000-man militia for a three month enlistment. This is an aggressive invasion force?
I must draw the inevitable conclusion: the South started the war! (This will bring down the wrath of the Lost Causers on my innocent head.)
 

uaskme

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Seward: Higher Power, no compromise. Irrepressible Conflict
John Brown: Financed by Radicals to start a Race War. Cheered as a Hero
Lincoln: Country can’t be Half Slave and Half Free. Post Election, no compromise
Garrison Abolitionist: Fanatical Disunionist, Yankee Republicans
Free Soilers: Wanted Southerners Politically and Economically subdued. Wanted Southerners to have NO influence in National Affairs. Adopted by the Republicans.

All this is the Foundation of Southern Secession with the Election of a Sectional, Political Anti-Southern Party. All of the above actors were of Disunion. However, they had taken Control of the Federal Government.
 
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unionblue

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I can understand why the Southern states would want to take control of their own land and rid themselves of a foreign army. South Carolina, Georgia, Florida and Alabama were no longer a part of the United States, as they saw it. Mr. Lincoln felt otherwise
And enough of the citizens of the United States agreed with Mr. Lincoln that a small group of rebels should not be able to divide a nation for their own, selfish interests.
 
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byron ed

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But divided Virginia for selfish interests of their own with the formation of West Virginia.
Uh …west Virginians merely reacted as quickly as they could to stay in the Union. It was Virginia that had done the seceding.

And let's not imply "selfish" to mean some sort of scheme. In those days, as now, every section of the nation; each typical resident of the nation; acted on their own behalf. There's no big spook in that.

Virginian residents at least were less selfish in claiming their own land and beliefs than were Southern slaveocrats in claiming other people's land and beliefs (the more than half the residents of the Southern section of the nation who had no say in it -- among them white women, native American men and women, most free black men and women, but especially all slave black men and women).
 
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Malingerer

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All of the Confederate states all decided to leave. Almost 1/2 the counties that formed West Virginia had voted with Virginia for secession, but were included for other reasons such as the control of the B&O RR
When you choose treason and armed rebellion as a remedy to your current political concerns you can't go whining when someone comes along and breaks all your play pretties. Gettin' soooo.. Tired of crybabies and whiners.
 
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Stone in the wall

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When you choose treason and armed rebellion as a remedy to your current political concerns you can't go whining when someone comes along and breaks all your play pretties. Gettin' soooo.. Tired of crybabies and whiners.
Jefferson and Berkeley counties were not included with the fist 48, they were added later. Seems the B&O tracks run through here
 

jackt62

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I can understand why the Southern states would want to take control of their own land and rid themselves of a foreign army. South Carolina, Georgia, Florida and Alabama were no longer a part of the United States, as they saw it. Mr. Lincoln felt otherwise
This is what Lincoln actually said about the secession movement and about his opposition to the January 1861 'Crittenden Compromise,' which would have contravened the Republican platform on which Lincoln had been elected;

"We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government shall be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten."
 
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Will Carry

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This is what Lincoln actually said about the secession movement and about his opposition to the January 1861 'Crittenden Compromise,' which would have contravened the Republican platform on which Lincoln had been elected;

"We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government shall be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten."
I am so glad old Abe was willing to fight over it. I hate that it had to be that way but it helped create the greatest nation the world has ever seen. Founded on Liberty and Freedom....for all.
 

19thGeorgia

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December 27, 1860—South Carolina seizes Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney, a Federal schooner and other Federal property....
January 3—Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski to prevent U.S. troops from garrisoning it....
January 4—Alabama seizes the US arsenal at Mount Vernon....
January 6—Florida seizes the Apalachicola arsenal....

And several weeks later:
April 15, 1861—Lincoln calls for for a 75,000-man militia for a three month enlistment. This is an aggressive invasion force? [Yes, it was.]
Big difference between seizing an arsenal or fort within your own state and invading a state with a large army.
 

unionblue

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Big difference between seizing an arsenal or fort within your own state and invading a state with a large army.
So, only city police should respond to a crime and the FBI and State Troopers twiddle their thumbs at the city limits?

Why not simply admit there was more than one state doing the seizing that required a large national army to put down a regional rebellion?
 
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Joshism

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I can understand why the Southern states would want to take control of their own land and rid themselves of a foreign army. South Carolina, Georgia, Florida and Alabama were no longer a part of the United States, as they saw it. Mr. Lincoln felt otherwise
Let us, for the sake of arguement, assume the Southern states were fully and legally entitled to secede.

On what grounds did such secession permit unilateral seizure of federal land, federal buildings, and other federal property (guns, ammo, tools, etc)? It seems Southerners wanted to secede playing by whatever rules they felt suited them.

Fort Sumter is the most prominent example, being on an artificial island. Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas is another.

At my lighthouse the property went from the federal General Land Office to the federal lighthouse service without ever being owned by the territory or state of Florida, or any private owner. The lighthouse was built with federal money by a construction crew from Philadelphia under a northern supervisor with northern materials. The keepers salary was paid by the treasury department. Why should Florida be given ownership in 1861?

But what about offshore lighthouses or lightships that aren't even within state waters, although they are off the coast of a seceded state?

How about Navy vessels? Which ones were the Confederates entitled to? If it was docked the day the state seceded? If it was homeported in a seceded state?
 
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byron ed

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Big difference between seizing an arsenal or fort within your own state and invading a state with a large army.
That the state took property owned by all U.S. taxpayers was not justified merely because that state had seceded from the U.S. (If a Frenchman takes your wallet while you're in France -- is it justified because it's his country?)

And btw, real Confederates had no illusion about that. They took U.S. property with the intention of litigating it later. (If someone takes your wallet -- is it justified because they intend to settle in court later?)
 
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