White Linen Massachusetts haversack

[Robert Weber]

Hi All,

I am new to this site so bear with me in regards to finding the right place to post.

I have been looking for information regarding the white linen Massachusetts haversack. I saw there was a thread on the subject through a search however the thread was from 2020. I want to post a question but was prompted to start a new thread. So here we go.
Hi,
Has anyone read the Strayer documentation about the white linen Massachusetts haversacks? I saw the Cross article from 2005 but it only mentions Strayer and does not present the actual documentation. I am wondering if the documentation from Strayer states clearly that these were issued in the 1870's only. Meaning were they issued in the civil war and postwar or they can only be considered a postwar piece? I also see that there was a connection to a soldier who fought at Antietam and assume it was thought to have been carried there? I see that the post made in this forum was made in 2020 and may not be the most up to date info if there is any. I am currently looking at one of these that is for sale from a VERY reputable dealer and is described as a Civil War Massachusetts haversack.

Any input or comments you can share on this subject will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Package4]

Hi All,

I am new to this site so bear with me in regards to finding the right place to post.

I have been looking for information regarding the white linen Massachusetts haversack. I saw there was a thread on the subject through a search however the thread was from 2020. I want to post a question but was prompted to start a new thread. So here we go.
Hi,
Has anyone read the Strayer documentation about the white linen Massachusetts haversacks? I saw the Cross article from 2005 but it only mentions Strayer and does not present the actual documentation. I am wondering if the documentation from Strayer states clearly that these were issued in the 1870's only. Meaning were they issued in the civil war and postwar or they can only be considered a postwar piece? I also see that there was a connection to a soldier who fought at Antietam and assume it was thought to have been carried there? I see that the post made in this forum was made in 2020 and may not be the most up to date info if there is any. I am currently looking at one of these that is for sale from a VERY reputable dealer and is described as a Civil War Massachusetts haversack.

Any input or comments you can share on this subject will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Rob

I would stay away, I have two of them complete with rice bag, but subsequent research has been uncovered that shows their manufacture in the 1870s. I cannot remember the individual, but he dug up the manufacturer and contract.

 

[scooter748driver]

One recently sold at The Horse Soldier for $550. Here's the link to the description:

ORIGINAL LINEN CIVIL WAR STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS HAVERSACK — Horse Soldier

 

[Package4]

One recently sold at The Horse Soldier for $550. Here's the link to the description:

ORIGINAL LINEN CIVIL WAR STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS HAVERSACK — Horse Soldier

Civil War haversacks typically go for $1,500 and up, so the Horse Soldier knows something, but are not completely sure. They are some of the best in the business, but a lot of their material is on consignment and they do not do much more than authenticate that it is not a repro. They do purchase collections and do meticulous research on those items.

I deal with them very frequently, in fact negotiating a very nice Southern grouping currently. The Ray Ritchie collection that they are in the process of purchasing is the finest in private hands and may take three years or more to complete.

 

[Robert Weber]

I would stay away, I have two of them complete with rice bag, but subsequent research has been uncovered that shows their manufacture in the 1870s. I cannot remember the individual, but he dug up the manufacturer and contract.

Hi, I read the 2005 article by Scott Cross and he mentions a Larry Strayer as having found documentation that they were contracted in the 1870's. However the Strayer documentation is not in the article and I can't find it. I know Don Troiani had one in his collection and stated that there was an 1862 marking or connection. So I am wondering if they were contracted for/issued during and after the war?

 

[Package4]

Hi, I read the 2005 article by Scott Cross and he mentions a Larry Strayer as having found documentation that they were contracted in the 1870's. However the Strayer documentation is not in the article and I can't find it. I know Don Troiani had one in his collection and stated that there was an 1862 marking or connection. So I am wondering if they were contracted for/issued during and after the war?

I can't remember, but I seem to recall trying to reach out to Larry around 2020. I'll have to try again, but they have come way down in price, while US issue haversacks have not, so they are certainly suspect. I would save for an US issue haversack and not chance the MA. Don is like the rest of us, everyone said they were war date, heck they even have the MA stamp.

They do not appear in period photographs or soldier groupings, they seem to always show up alone and in great shape, which should tell you something.

 

[Robert Weber]

Right.

 

[Package4]

Right.

I reached out to Larry and hopefully will receive a reply. Also, should be in Gettysburg on Friday and make it a point to ask Wes (Horse Soldier) what they know about the item.

 

[Robert Weber]

I already sent a message to them on this subject, thanks.

 

[Package4]

I already sent a message to them on this subject, thanks.

I have reached out to the Massachusetts National Guard archivist to see where I might be able to get the state contracts of both periods. Stay tuned, probably duplicating Larry's work, but have been unable to hunt him up.

I would suggest buying the haversack with a contingency, in writing, that if subsequent research proves the haversacks were produced in the 1870s, then a full refund is in order.

 

[Package4]

I already sent a message to them on this subject, thanks.

It appears that these are definitely not a reissue from the Civil War, as the State archivist has shared some documentation regarding the Adjutant Generals report on the militia 1877. The report states that there are no haversacks or canteens to be found and that a contract need be let, in order to procure the haversacks, though surplus canteens of the Army style have been procured.

He says that the records of the contracts exist and that he will get to them shortly. I suspect this will turn out to be the contract for the white MA haversacks in question, but we need to wait and see what he uncovers.

 

[bobinwmass]

Looking at the Massachusetts Master of Ordnance Reports from 1861 through 1864, detailing items contacted for, bills approved, and items received during each year, I see nothing relating to an order for haversacks. (But all the details about cannons, muskets, Spencers, swords, drums, flags, leather item and Mass. beltplates, etc., is very interesting. )

 

[Dr.Mike]

Were the 1877-78 Massachusetts contracts for the production of unpainted haversacks ever located? Would someone kindly post them?

 

[Package4]

Were the 1877-78 Massachusetts contracts for the production of unpainted haversacks ever located? Would someone kindly post them?

I can't see where I ever received a reply, which is understandable, he intimated that they were just getting back to work (in person) from COVID. I will reach back out to him, if I can locate the email chain and contacts and see where we go from there.

 

[Dr.Mike]

I contacted my old pard Larry Strayer, showing him the position on white haversacks that was attributed to him. He sent me a scan from Bannerman's (attached) and replied: "Sorry - have no primary Mass QM reports in-house...I have never thought those haversacks could be antebellum...It seemed ridiculously small and wouldn't contain a normal-size mess plate. I'm certain Bannerman's text is correct."[that the haversack was intended for cadets].

I suggested to Larry "It seems that some of your fans credited you with having more documentation than you did when you contributed your observations to any early discussion!" Larry replied "You hit the nail with your observation on the post you saw referencing my comment: someone took it further than I wrote. I seem to recall seeing an example with a Mass marking, yet can't say with complete certainty anymore. For me the important take-away is they have cadet attribution, albeit only a Bannerman catalogue entry. I'm open to possibility these could be wartime cadet-use also, rather than early post war."

I sent Larry a photo of the "State of Mass/Inspected/Accepted" stamp (attached), and he replied "Those stamps jog my memory and were seen on another example some years back. The more details I see complicates a conclusion. If truly a cadet pattern, which size suggests, when or why did Mass acquire these smaller patterns for their militia? Did Bannerman speculate in his description?"

Like all good researchers, Larry does not claim that his observations from a decade ago represented the final word on the topic. He has adopted an open-minded and evidence-focused attitude about the Mass. haversacks. I put in an information request to the Mass. archives in hopes of obtaining conclusive documentation.

 

[Package4]

I contacted my old pard Larry Strayer, showing him the position on white haversacks that was attributed to him. He sent me a scan from Bannerman's (attached) and replied: "Sorry - have no primary Mass QM reports in-house...I have never thought those haversacks could be antebellum...It seemed ridiculously small and wouldn't contain a normal-size mess plate. I'm certain Bannerman's text is correct."[that the haversack was intended for cadets].

I suggested to Larry "It seems that some of your fans credited you with having more documentation than you did when you contributed your observations to any early discussion!" Larry replied "You hit the nail with your observation on the post you saw referencing my comment: someone took it further than I wrote. I seem to recall seeing an example with a Mass marking, yet can't say with complete certainty anymore. For me the important take-away is they have cadet attribution, albeit only a Bannerman catalogue entry. I'm open to possibility these could be wartime cadet-use also, rather than early post war."

I sent Larry a photo of the "State of Mass/Inspected/Accepted" stamp (attached), and he replied "Those stamps jog my memory and were seen on another example some years back. The more details I see complicates a conclusion. If truly a cadet pattern, which size suggests, when or why did Mass acquire these smaller patterns for their militia? Did Bannerman speculate in his description?"

Like all good researchers, Larry does not claim that his observations from a decade ago represented the final word on the topic. He has adopted an open-minded and evidence-focused attitude about the Mass. haversacks. I put in an information request to the Mass. archives in hopes of obtaining conclusive documentation.

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There is no doubt that Bannerman speculated and embellished in their descriptions, in researching the genesis of the term Zouave rifle, attributed to the 1863 Remington rifle, I found that Bannerman may very well have been the culprit. One of their early catalogs makes reference to rifles, IIRC "as carried by Zouaves". The research was conducted to counter those that were of the opinion that these were issued pieces; there is no creditable evidence that there was ever an issue and this, one of the finest weapons of the period.