Which one?

[ChristinaCompE21]

Hello!
So I have successfully found out my 3rd great grandfather's company number, letter and somewhat story. He was in the Illinois 21st volunteer infantry, Grant's first command. Well I want to get an amazing replica hat and I just found out there are two different kinds of hats, The Kepi and the Forage. He was only in the war for the first year and then was discharged from Ironton, Mo because he became disabled ( Still no clue what happened ) .. Do you know the anatomically right hat to buy? I was thinking it would be the Forage after some of the things I've been reading about it. Is this correct? Thanks so much!

Christina

 

[Chattahooch33]

Good question. One of the gurus will probably be able to find your answer. Once you have your answer we can find a good accurate hat.

Be prepared to spend $100-200 on a correct forage cap which is what I assume the 21st Ill had.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.

Until someone can answer you question, you might enjoy this thread it has allot of on on the two types.
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/confederate-forage-cap.117322/#post-1193665

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

And some more threads on the topic:
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/hello-questions-about-reenactors-kepi-and-forage-caps.107881/
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/what-came-first-kepi-or-forage.112531/
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/what-is-the-best-place-to-buy-a-us-forage-cap.110614/#post-1068861

 

[ChristinaCompE21]

Good question. One of the gurus will probably be able to find your answer. Once you have your answer we can find a good accurate hat.

Be prepared to spend $100-200 on a correct forage cap which is what I assume the 21st Ill had.

I was looking on Military Clothing.com they have some cool ones and I can get the brass Infantry symbol as well as company letter and number for like 40 bucks.

 

[E_just_E]

21st Illinois? This is a really interesting regiment. Had a pretty famous guy as its first colonel

Let me check. There might be other choices as well. Here is a brief history of the regiment.

 

[AUG]

Being a Midwestern regiment that served in the Western theater, its likely he wore a Hardee hat or even a civilian style slouch hat.

You might want to check out Dirty Billy's Hats: http://www.dirtybillyshats.com/

 

[Chattahooch33]

I was looking on Military Clothing.com they have some cool ones and I can get the brass Infantry symbol as well as company letter and number for like 40 bucks.

That is certainly an option but it will not be correct. It will be made in Pakistan and basically be a slightly better Halloween costume hat.

As was mentioned before Dirty Billy is a good choice. Here are his hats:



Federal Contract Forage Caps*All US Private Purchase Forage Caps are $125. ($10 for the buckle)

L. J. & I. Phillips Co. (New York)
Contract Type One

​

Lewis J. & Issac Phillips of New York manufactured approximately 800,000 forage caps during the Civil War. Two principal shapes are type I and II as shown. We'll call Type I the Early War cap. It has a smaller disc and a crescent flat visor. Type II has a larger disc and a more cylindrical body with a flat squarish visor.

Contract Type Two

​

Geo. Hoff & Co. (Philadelphia)
McDowell

​

George Hoff & Company contracted
approximately 620,000 forage caps from 1861 to 1865. This form failed just prior to the Civil War, but recovered with Army Contracts. This cap is characterized by a larger disc and a more cylindrical body. For some unexplainable reason, there are several original caps with Hoff labels in them of styles similar to those of other contractors. These caps can be divided into Type I (McDowell) and Type II, which has a flat, yet slightly flared, square visor.

Type Two

​

Murphy& Griswold (New York)
Hosptial Steward (Green Band)

​

Thomas Murphy and William Griswald and Company manufactured 583,000 forage caps from 1862 to 1865. The characteristics of these caps are a larger disc, a flat crescent visor, and a peculiar chin strap with the buckle attached to one end of the sliding chin strap. Some relic specimen are found with the standard free-floating buckle chin strapp, but it is believed that these are replacements and not original to the makers' version. Hospital Steward's wreath and white metal US are normally on the dress hat. Sometimes, as with other hat brass, it can be found on the forage cap.
*These caps are not recommended for early war impressions.

G.& S. (New York)

​

Although little information is known about the contractor, G. & S. (possibly Griswald and Son), the caps are very similar to those of L. J. & I. Phillips and Geo. Hoff. Several specimens of originals have been examined with this label. It is uncertain whether these hats are considered to be early or late war.

M. Brooks (Philladelphia)

​

Brooks, Matthew of Philladelphia manufactured 26,000 contract caps for the US Army during 1862 through 1865. The cap resembles the caps produced by L. J. & I. Phillips so closely that it is difficult to tell them apart except for minor variations in the discs and visors.

Thompson, Goodrich, & Co. (Cincinnati)

​

M. Thompson and Charles Goodrich of Cincinnati, Ohio, with distributors in New York produced approximately 86,000 forage caps of various styles of visor and disc shape. This company is a late war (1864) cap maker. It is noted that these caps are taller specimens.
* The hat shown is a McDowell style cap.

 

[Chattahooch33]

As also mentioned before, the unit probably wore a Hardee or a slouch toward the end of the war. Forage caps were unpopular as they provided no shelter from the sun and rain. Western troops were usually strong willed and wore what they wanted and what was comfortable rather than sticking to the uniform guidelines.

Tim Bender makes the best Hardee and slouch on the market in my opinion... and he is a heck of a ton easier to deal with than Dirty Billy so I've heard.

Remember, these two gentlemen make their hats the way they were made at the time; with real felt, by hand, and with care. Hats were the most important piece of clothing to men of the 19th century. A lot of care would have gone into what hat topped off an outfit.

Tim Bender: http://benderhats.com/hats1.html

Expired Image Removed
Expired Image Removed

Label for the 1858 Dress Hat

Crown Hgt 6", brim width 3", brim stitching 4 to the inch (enlisted man) or grosgrain ribbon (officer) crown ribbon 3/8 grosgrain w/false knot and bow, sweatband 2 1/2" black japaned leather stitched at 8 to the inch. Manufacture label gold stamp on black japaned cloth securely affixed to the crown.
Price: enlisted $120, officer $125 plus S&H



Medium Crown Bowler
Expired Image Removed
Shown in Rusty Brown, the crown height is 4 3/4 inch, shown here with a 3 1/4 inch brim.
Price: $120.00 plus S&H Silk lining add $4.00

 

[ChristinaCompE21]

He was only in the Civil war for the first year and then was discharged in Feb 62' disabled. So I think it would be the first hat you showed me.. Which is amazing! I looked at that shop's website and I HAVE to go check it out. I can't wait to get to Gettysburg!

Also I have also been looking for pictures of the 21st infantry Company E for so long or any picture of the 21st infantry for that matter .. if you have a picture please send it my way .. I found this picture today and I feel like everytime I try I get closer and closer ..

 

[E_just_E]

He was only in the Civil war for the first year and then was discharged in Feb 62' disabled. So I think it would be the first hat you showed me.. Which is amazing! I looked at that shop's website and I HAVE to go check it out. I can't wait to get to Gettysburg!

Also I have also been looking for pictures of the 21st infantry Company E for so long or any picture of the 21st infantry for that matter .. if you have a picture please send it my way .. I found this picture today and I feel like everytime I try I get closer and closer ..

Charles Shipman from Sullivan, IL ?

 

[Package4]

I just looked at the available photographs of the 21st IL on the HDS website and the only hats extant were forage caps for the enlisted and of course kepis for the commissioned officers.

Thomas Ashmore Co B 21st IL KIA Stones River 12/62. So I don't think you could go wrong with a small disk forage cap. I highly suggest Dirty Billy.

 

[ChristinaCompE21]

Charles Shipman from Sullivan, IL ?

Yep! Thats him.

 

[ChristinaCompE21]

Thanks so much! This is awesome! I will def look into Dirty Billies, What's the web site that you found this on? Are there any company E? What a rad picture.. I always see pictures and wonder if the guys in the pic knew my Grandpa, if they shared a beer or some whiskey together and talked about life by a campfire.. always a cool thought

I just looked at the available photographs of the 21st IL on the HDS website and the only hats extant were forage caps for the enlisted and of course kepis for the commissioned officers.

Thomas Ashmore Co B 21st IL KIA Stones River 12/62. So I don't think you could go wrong with a small disk forage cap. I highly suggest Dirty Billy.

 

[Package4]

Historical Data Systems, though it is a subscription site, it is only $25 per year and I use it to check provenance of "ID'd" memorabilia. There were other soldiers, I think 25 in all, but the only Co E were officers.

 

[Keiri]

Package4 - I've been wondering about that site, saw it before. Is that all they offer, memorabilia info? I haven't been able to determine if they offer databases that differ much from other sources I access.