Discussion What would have caused this?

[Jack7171]

Would this have been a weak casting? Too big of a charge?

 

[drezac]

it could have been a shell or case shot that detonated in the bore from a fuze failure, or a unintentional double-load during battle.

 

[Jack7171]

it could have been a shell or case shot that detonated in the bore from a fuze failure, or a unintentional double-load during battle.

Ahhhh,,,didn't think about that

 

[History hoarder63]

Would this have been a weak casting? Too big of a charge?
View attachment 493695

There could have been some debris (dirt, sand or small gravel) inside the barrel near the muzzle.

 

[Joe Whitworth]

It could have been fired under dire circumstances (insert your own scenario) without the ball being properly seated on the powder charge. "Short starting" a ball can cause a bulge in a muzzleloading rifle barrel. I would love know what really happened.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Sirs, does anyone know where this pic was taken?

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

 

[Jack7171]

Sirs, does anyone know where this pic was taken?

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

I took the photo in gettysburg nmp

 

[Jack7171]

I took the photo in gettysburg nmp

Sirs, does anyone know where this pic was taken?

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

There could have been some debris (dirt, sand or small gravel) inside the barrel near the muzzle.

Would that have caused the shell or shot have to have lodged in the barrel?

 

[tmorr]

Someone at the national park may be able to shed more light on this if you inquire with the location and any numbers that are on the gun. This could be a result of some postwar tom foolery once the gun was on display.

 

[Tanglewood]

Burst Cannon at Zieglers Grove , Gettysburg | Cannons / Artillery & Crew Served Weapons

Was at Gettysburg Oct.31 thru Nov. 2nd and noticed this cannon at Zieglers Grove. Anyone know the story on this burst tube ? By the way, had fantastic weather there the whole time and very few people.

civilwartalk.com

 

[Rhea Cole]

There is a possibility that it was deliberately slighted. It really takes something big to do that to a bronze barrel.

 

[CaptSpook]

There is a possibility that it was deliberately slighted. It really takes something big to do that to a bronze barrel.

It could have been deliberate post war, possibly using more modern smokeless powder.

But, as others have pointed out, it might have been from multiple charges. You might have read about muskets found after the battle with double, triple, and more loads resulting from the soldier in the excitement and din of battle, not realizing he's loaded his weapon and it hadn't discharged, so he continues to load.

The noise and excitement in a field artillery battery would have been similar, or worse. Yet, you might think that someone serving that gun would have noticed that it didn't fire when it should have.

A prematurely bursting fused round is still a possibility, but I suspect there would have been a written account of such an incident in someone's diary or memoir.

 

[Tanglewood]

From the thread I posted above...

Back in 1980 I had a chance to spend some time in the old museum and collection building and asked that very question..The Park employee there said someone shoved a bunch of smokeless powder down the barrel and plugged the bore before setting it off.. Ouch!!.. Makes sense.. BTW.. That gun is at the position of Battery I, 1st US Artillery .. George Woodruff's Battery.. One of the Best !!

 

[Rhea Cole]

It could have been deliberate post war, possibly using more modern smokeless powder.

But, as others have pointed out, it might have been from multiple charges. You might have read about muskets found after the battle with double, triple, and more loads resulting from the soldier in the excitement and din of battle, not realizing he's loaded his weapon and it hadn't discharged, so he continues to load.

The noise and excitement in a field artillery battery would have been similar, or worse. Yet, you might think that someone serving that gun would have noticed that it didn't fire when it should have.

A prematurely bursting fused round is still a possibility, but I suspect there would have been a written account of such an incident in someone's diary or memoir.

There are well documented examples of pre-detonation causing catastrophic failures. Everyone has seen images of Parrott rifles with 1/2 the barrel gone. This is often dismissed as the result of casting flaws. The real reason is much more interesting.

What caused the spectacular failure of "The Swamp Angle" & other large caliber Parrott's was pre-detonation of the round. It was discovered that the rough cast interior of the shell coupled with the dynamic forces of launch ignited the charge. The physics of the two explosions colliding with one another, [Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass X Velocity Squared ] created a massive amount of force.

By the time the problem was diagnosed & a solution found, Parott rifles were already obsolete. It was discovered that coating the inside of the casting with naturally occurring "asphaltium" [tar] prevented the pre-detonation.

A spectacular incident occurred during the inaugural firing of a 10" Colombiad in Columbia KY. The massive coastal defense gun had been named "Lady Polk" in honor of the commanding general's wife.

Through any number of mishaps, it went off like a gigantic pipe bomb. General / Bishop Polk had his pants blown off & was disordered in his mind for a considerable period of time.

That explosion echoed up & down the Mississippi Valley both physically & morally. Command devolved into the hands of the Homer Simpson of the CSA, Gideon Pillow.

There are only a handful of failures recorded on 3" ordinance rifles. At Franklin, they were loaded with a charge, solid bolt double canister & then filled to the muzzle with "dummies." [ socks filled with Minnie balls ] The battery commander, "…distinctly heard the report followed by the sound of the bones."

Bronze, by its very nature, will absorb great stress without failure. Any obstruction of the bore, no matter how slight can create a catastrophic over pressure. In one notable occasion a snowball did the job. Whatever it was that caused the dramatic split in that Napoleon had to involve an obstruction of some kind.

Guns were slighted by overloading them & wedging a round in place. The resulting over pressure would shatter a cast iron gun. Given the resilience of bronze, only extreme measures in the form of multiple powder charges would have achieved the desired effect.

Never say never, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that a premature ignition of the charge while being rammed could be the culprit. The traumatic amputation of #1's arm at the elbow would commonly be associated.

This is the only image of a split open bronze gun I am aware of, which is saying something.

 

[drezac]

I would doubt that smokeless powder could cause that. Mainly due to 2 reasons:
1. even if the bore was plugged, the vent would still allow pressure to escape. Even if the bore and vent were plugged, it's likely that whatever was plugging the bore and/or vent would have been blown out before pressures would have been high enough to burst the bronze.

2. smokeless powder will not detonate like black powder will. while it can generate more pressure than black powder, smokeless powder just burns real fast and generates gas, no explosion. From the looks of the bulge completely around the barrel and the fractured bronze, in my opinion it looks more like explosion/detonation damage as opposed to pressure.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I would doubt that smokeless powder could cause that. Mainly due to 2 reasons:
1. even if the bore was plugged, the vent would still allow pressure to escape. Even if the bore and vent were plugged, it's likely that whatever was plugging the bore and/or vent would have been blown out before pressures would have been high enough to burst the bronze.

2. smokeless powder will not detonate like black powder will. while it can generate more pressure than black powder, smokeless powder just burns real fast and generates gas, no explosion. From the looks of the bulge completely around the barrel and the fractured bronze, in my opinion it looks more like explosion/detonation damage as opposed to pressure.

I refer you to a gunsmith who will remove your doubts. Any obstruction, a wad of paper in one case, acts as an obstruction & can cause a catastrophic failure.

Until somebody with documentation enters the conversation the entire question is moot. All we have are the known principles to base our speculation on.

 

[Gandycreek]

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/burst-cannon-at-zieglers-grove-gettysburg.151358/
I posted this 5 years ago. Cannonman1 explained how this happened in this thread.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I contacted a deeply knowledgeable NPS friend about this gun. He is familiar with this gun.

What makes it remarkable is that it survived the war. Ordinarily it would have been melted down along with obsolete & shot out tubes to cast new Napoleons.

This particular Napoleon had a pre-detonation during loading. A shell & charge in the chase not far from the muzzle during ramming.

The swell is the locus of where the detonation of the round & charge occurred.

 

[USS ALASKA]

This particular Napoleon had a predestination during loading.

...so an act of God?


USS ALASKA