What is it?

[AtomicSettler]

Hey all, so found this at grandmother's house ( a lot of great stuff there haha) its a .58 caliber Navy Arms rifled musket, only thing is that's all I know about it. I know its a modern remake, but I was wondering if you all knew the gun it was based off of and what year this gun would have been used. Thanks!

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Here is the "Down and Dirty" version: It is a replica of a Remington Model 1863 Rifle. Remington delivered slightly in excess of 10,000 of them. Upon delivery and acceptance by the Federal Government, they went into government storage where they remained until after the Civil War when the government sold them to Francis Bannerman and Company. Bannerman then sold them to the public through their famous catalogues for many, many, years afterward. The Remington M-1863 Rifle is one of the most attractive rifles of the Civil War era, but unfortunately it never saw any use.
J.

 

[Poor Private]

Nope some did see use. They have found remenants and relics at Petersburg recently. I think the documentation was shown on the old cwreenactor forum. (that just recently went black).
Also in another thread(may be a different forum) someone said Remington had trouble meeting his contracts and was substituting/filling in with Remingtons for the 1841 Mississippis when he couldn't fulfill the Mississipi contracts, since they were so similar.

 

[hrobalabama]

Not only at Petersburg ,but I read while back, parts had also been unearthed at Gettysburg.
Most that I have seen at gun shows were mint or vg condition. Which in themselves show that they were never issued to
troops. They were perhaps the most attractive CW era arms whether issued or not.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Well, folks, I've been chasing these "Urban Myths" for over 50 years and no one has yet been able to produce the relics or artifacts that are so often referred to. My late father was a highly respected archaeologist and even he found nothing but dead ends when pursuing the "Mythological Remington Zouave Artifacts". You can believe the "Stories" if you wish, but I believe the facts.
J.

 

[James N.]

Hey all, so found this at grandmother's house ( a lot of great stuff there haha) its a .58 caliber Navy Arms rifled musket, only thing is that's all I know about it. I know its a modern remake, but I was wondering if you all knew the gun it was based off of and what year this gun would have been used. Thanks!

As you can possibly tell from the variety of answers you have received, these things have been a BANE of reenacting. The trouble began in the 1960's ( likely when yours was made, or soon after ) when the Italians began reproducing them for reenacting because they were pretty without bothering to find out anything about their history. When reenacting began to turn toward authenticity in the 1970's, there were already thousands of these around, and Bubba didn't see why he couldn't bring his "Civil War gun" to events like like Gettysburg, even though none were used there. ( Or likely anywhere else! ) Eventually these were all retired to the closet where they belong, but unfortunately the battle's not over - just this weekend I had to tell a novice WHY he shouldn't be using one he'd just bought from an unscrupulous individual who knew better and wanted it off his hands!

 

[AtomicSettler]

Ok, one for the mantle I guess. Now what type of musket should I look for?

 

[Jobe Holiday]

With all due respect, I would like to expand on the historic background of the reproduction 1863 Remington Rifle, aka "Zouave". Mr. Val Forgette was already a well established arms importer and entrepreneur in 1959. As a member of the North-South Skirmish Association (N-SSA), Val saw the need for a good, accurate shooting, reproduction of a Civil War arm. In those days not much thought was given to whether the "Zouave" was ever used, or not. It was a beautiful arm! There were already several hundred of the original "Zouave" Rifles being used by the members of the N-SSA. Val took a new, unfired, example of an original "Zouave" over to Italy and contracted with the well known Italian arms company of Antonio Zoli to manufacture replicas of said arm. Val was able to produce, import, and sell the reproductions for about $100 dollars less than people were paying for nearly new original "Zouaves". The price of the reproduction in 1960 was $125. All of this was done for the purposes of live fire competition in the N-SSA, the re-enacting market was entirely secondary. In fact, many of the early re-enactments were rife with Trapdoors and Rolling Blocks! Trust me on that one....I was there!
J.

 

[James N.]

True enough; when these were first contracted for, reenacting hadn't even been imagined, except for a few memories of the events commemorating the Civil War Centennial, which were anything but authentic!

 

[hrobalabama]

Well, folks, I've been chasing these "Urban Myths" for over 50 years and no one has yet been able to produce the relics or artifacts that are so often referred to. My late father was a highly respected archaeologist and even he found nothing but dead ends when pursuing the "Mythological Remington Zouave Artifacts". You can believe the "Stories" if you wish, but I believe the facts.
J.

I have often wondered just why these were made and then never issued?
Some are stamped "NJ" and it seems most of the "NJ" were never issued except to some state militias.
I know that it is a modification of the Mississippi Rifle; the smaller patch box, different barrel bands, etc
Why would the gov't pay to have these arms made and then just stored away? Flayderman said that 12,500 were made.
One in excellent condition is valued at $4,500.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

I would like to see one stamped "N.J"
J.

 

[James N.]

I have often wondered just why these were made and then never issued?
Some are stamped "NJ" and it seems most of the "NJ" were never issued except to some state militias.
I know that it is a modification of the Mississippi Rifle; the smaller patch box, different barrel bands, etc
Why would the gov't pay to have these arms made and then just stored away? Flayderman said that 12,500 were made.
One in excellent condition is valued at $4,500.

Are you kidding!? This is in NO way different than the pork-barrel boondoggles of today, except of course for the relative low-cost to taxpayers then vs. now. Seriously, in 1861 there was a SERIOUS shortage of small arms ( artillery, too ) of all kinds in both the North as well as the South, and huge numbers of government contracts were let, often for arms of dubious utility or value. ( This practice helped bring down Maj. Gen. John C. Fremont, as well as Lincoln's first Secretary of War Simon Cameron who was quickly and rather quietly shunted off to be the U.S. Ambassador to St. Petersburg, Russia, and replaced by Edwin Stanton. ) Although the Zouaves were fine guns, by the time the contract for them was filled, the urgency had passed and there were by then more than enough Springfields and Enfields available, so these were simply stored along with the thousands of conversion muskets and imported Belgian, Saxon, Prussian, etc., etc. arms of various calibers that had been replaced in the hands of the troops with the standardized .577 or .58 rifles.

 

[63springfield]

Ok, one for the mantle I guess. Now what type of musket should I look for?

Seems this got ignored. You could go deer hunting with it like I am going to do with a cut down original 63 Springfield of mine or sell it to someone for that purpose . Many states have seasons just for these and that is better than being ashamed of it and hiding it in a closet . Sorry I don't have the answer to the second part being purely a collector but the " NSSA approved " notation on sites with repo guns probably covers it . If you are purely a collector though the rules are VERY different and notice the $4,500 price . Nice original period correct items do have a strong following amongst collectors . You will find many that will pay dearly for items in unissued condition .

 

[Poor Private]

The one I have was given to me by a favorite uncle. He had no idea what it was, just that it met our states BP deer hunting season. Whn he brought it out and showed me I told him what it was. He took several deer with it. When I got home from a reenactment it was setting in my workshop. Wife said " Uncle Bob said you can have since you were the only one who knew what it was". It now hangs on the wall above our dinner table with a brass plaque saying hat it is and it now has a name "BOB". I have used it in our local event just so my 70something uncle can see it in the field. I puchaes the bayonet for it. Until someone can come up with the definitve answer with the proof that they wern't in the filed I will still once in a while take it out in the field and use for something other than hunting, or target shooting. Never say never unless there is proof is my motto, because there is alway something that will throw a monkey wrench in the mix.

 

[63springfield]

Excellent story , Puts it in a special category . Bet it made him happy seeing it in " action " .
Really looking forward to musket hunting this fall !!! BP season is in Dec here so it will be plenty cold .
Not my part to comment on the rules about what can or cannot be used . Sounds like it is one of the rules that all go by . I can understand that .
Will say though after looking into these a little a real nice - sanely priced original example would be welcome here !!!!!

 

[James N.]

Seems this got ignored. You could go deer hunting with it like I am going to do with a cut down original 63 Springfield of mine or sell it to someone for that purpose . Many states have seasons just for these and that is better than being ashamed of it and hiding it in a closet . Sorry I don't have the answer to the second part being purely a collector but the " NSSA approved " notation on sites with repo guns probably covers it . If you are purely a collector though the rules are VERY different and notice the $4,500 price . Nice original period correct items do have a strong following amongst collectors . You will find many that will pay dearly for items in unissued condition .

When I said these belong in a closet somewhere, I was speaking strictly from a reenacting perspective; as shooters, which as Jobe pointed out they were originally intended for, many if not most are fine. There is another related problem, however: The Navy Arms Zouaves were produced by reputable Italian arms makers but unfortunately due to their popularity, these were copied by less-than-reliable oriental makers. In my early days of reenacting back in the 70's, I think I briefly owned ( or maybe borrowed ) one that I think was Korean which by no means was as well-made as the Italian ones. It would be a good idea to determine from the markings on this or any other which they may be from a safety perspective.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

James N. is quite correct on the varying quality of the reproduction "Zouave". In the past 55 odd years they have been produced by a plethora of manufacturers with an assortment of issues. One that comes to mind are the ones that were imported by "Hy-Hunter". Although I don't know the actual manufacturer in Italy, I do know that the bolsters were brazed to the barrels. This caused a safety problem because several are known to have been blown off the barrels. The N-SSA banned the use of these particular arms. Over the years I have heard numerous complaints that the N-SSA is too "hard line" on what they allow to be used, I recently read some of this on a Cowboy Action page. I am of the other opinion that if it weren't for the N-SSA's diligence the reproduction arms market would be overflowing with less than questionable replicas.
J.

 

[James N.]

When I said these belong in a closet somewhere, I was speaking strictly from a reenacting perspective; as shooters, which as Jobe pointed out they were originally intended for, many if not most are fine. There is another related problem, however: The Navy Arms Zouaves were produced by reputable Italian arms makers but unfortunately due to their popularity, these were copied by less-than-reliable oriental makers. In my early days of reenacting back in the 70's, I think I briefly owned ( or maybe borrowed ) one that I think was Korean which by no means was as well-made as the Italian ones. It would be a good idea to determine from the markings on this or any other which they may be from a safety perspective.

Edit: Since this one is from Navy Arms I would have no problem shooting it.

 

[63springfield]

Read about the bolster issue years ago and I thought the crappy ones were silver soldered ? Aren't the crappy ones fairly obvious ? Anyway his is the good kind and it is good to remind folks to check this before using them . Whether the N-SSA is too "hard line" or not is not for me to judge as it has no bearing on me . Again I am just a collector and not concerned with anything past " was it ordered , dated and accepted in wartime " .

 

[Jobe Holiday]

63springfield, the Remington 1863 Rifle certainly fits within your parameters, and BTW, I feel the same as you do in those regards.
J.