West Virginia

atlantis

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
You didn't get it quite right.

On 23 May 1861 the secession ordnance was ratified by a large majority of Virginia’s voters, but in the western counties that would ultimately form West Virginia the vote was 34,677 against and 19,121 in favor of ratification of the Ordinance. The Second Wheeling Convention met on 11 June and adopted "A Declaration of the People of Virginia," declaring that since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people all its acts were illegal. It further declared that all state office holders who adhered to the Ordinance of Secession had effectively vacated their offices and that the pro-secession government in Richmond was void.

The Convention passed an act for the reorganization of the Commonwealth government on 19 June. The following day Francis Harrison Pierpont (R) was chosen as governor of the “restored” government of Virginia, some other state officers were elected, and the convention adjourned. The legislature of the restored state government was composed of the house members from the western counties who had been elected on 23 May and some holdover senators who had been elected in 1859. The legislature met at Wheeling on 1 July, filled the remainder of the state offices, completed the reorganization of a state government, and elected two United States senators who were recognized by the Federal government. Thus, there were two governments claiming to represent Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and the other to the Confederacy.

The pro-Northern restored government authorized the creation of the State of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that ultimately became West Virginia. On 20 August the Wheeling Convention called for a referendum on the formation of a new state and a convention to frame a new constitution. When the election was held on 24 October 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. This was a substantial minority of the voters in the western counties, however, because voters who favored succession from the Union boycotted the election. Other voters were prevented from voting because Confederate military forces occupied some of the counties. Thus, West Virginia was created by the people of Virginia acting through their Federally recognized state government.

On 13 May 1862 the legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of a new state and the legislature applied to the Federal Congress for admission to the Union. President Lincoln approved an enabling act on 31 December, provided that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery was contained in the state constitution. A revised constitution was adopted on 26 March 1863 and on 20 April Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the State of West Virginia to the Union effective 20 June.

Meanwhile, Governor Pierpoint's restored Commonwealth of Virginia government operated in the area of northern Virginia and the tidewater occupied by the Federal Army. Consequently, as far as Lincoln and the Federal government were concerned the legitimate government of Virginia was the restored government, with the Confederate Commonwealth government in Richmond being a illegal fiction.

So then, how was Lincoln's defense of the Constitution false? What is surprising, given the antipathy between the mountain folk and the planter aristocracy, is that it didn't happen in other states, eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia being examples.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
Not understanding what was the downside of admitting West Virginia has a new state. Not seeing a valid argument that Lincoln violated the US Constitution since the US Supreme Court validated the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
Not understanding what was the downside of admitting West Virginia has a new state. Not seeing a valid argument that Lincoln violated the US Constitution since the US Supreme Court validated the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
You didn't get it quite right.

On 23 May 1861 the secession ordnance was ratified by a large majority of Virginia’s voters, but in the western counties that would ultimately form West Virginia the vote was 34,677 against and 19,121 in favor of ratification of the Ordinance. The Second Wheeling Convention met on 11 June and adopted "A Declaration of the People of Virginia," declaring that since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people all its acts were illegal. It further declared that all state office holders who adhered to the Ordinance of Secession had effectively vacated their offices and that the pro-secession government in Richmond was void.

The Convention passed an act for the reorganization of the Commonwealth government on 19 June. The following day Francis Harrison Pierpont (R) was chosen as governor of the “restored” government of Virginia, some other state officers were elected, and the convention adjourned. The legislature of the restored state government was composed of the house members from the western counties who had been elected on 23 May and some holdover senators who had been elected in 1859. The legislature met at Wheeling on 1 July, filled the remainder of the state offices, completed the reorganization of a state government, and elected two United States senators who were recognized by the Federal government. Thus, there were two governments claiming to represent Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and the other to the Confederacy.

The pro-Northern restored government authorized the creation of the State of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that ultimately became West Virginia. On 20 August the Wheeling Convention called for a referendum on the formation of a new state and a convention to frame a new constitution. When the election was held on 24 October 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. This was a substantial minority of the voters in the western counties, however, because voters who favored succession from the Union boycotted the election. Other voters were prevented from voting because Confederate military forces occupied some of the counties. Thus, West Virginia was created by the people of Virginia acting through their Federally recognized state government.

On 13 May 1862 the legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of a new state and the legislature applied to the Federal Congress for admission to the Union. President Lincoln approved an enabling act on 31 December, provided that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery was contained in the state constitution. A revised constitution was adopted on 26 March 1863 and on 20 April Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the State of West Virginia to the Union effective 20 June.

Meanwhile, Governor Pierpoint's restored Commonwealth of Virginia government operated in the area of northern Virginia and the tidewater occupied by the Federal Army. Consequently, as far as Lincoln and the Federal government were concerned the legitimate government of Virginia was the restored government, with the Confederate Commonwealth government in Richmond being a illegal fiction.

So then, how was Lincoln's defense of the Constitution false? What is surprising, given the antipathy between the mountain folk and the planter aristocracy, is that it didn't happen in other states, eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia being examples.

Regards,
Don Dixon
There where proponents during the ACW of creating a new state "Nickajack from Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina. Unfortunately not enough support in the house and senate to create that state.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
Not understanding what was the downside of admitting West Virginia has a new state. Not seeing a valid argument that Lincoln violated the US Constitution since the US Supreme Court validated the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
You didn't get it quite right.

On 23 May 1861 the secession ordnance was ratified by a large majority of Virginia’s voters, but in the western counties that would ultimately form West Virginia the vote was 34,677 against and 19,121 in favor of ratification of the Ordinance. The Second Wheeling Convention met on 11 June and adopted "A Declaration of the People of Virginia," declaring that since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people all its acts were illegal. It further declared that all state office holders who adhered to the Ordinance of Secession had effectively vacated their offices and that the pro-secession government in Richmond was void.

The Convention passed an act for the reorganization of the Commonwealth government on 19 June. The following day Francis Harrison Pierpont (R) was chosen as governor of the “restored” government of Virginia, some other state officers were elected, and the convention adjourned. The legislature of the restored state government was composed of the house members from the western counties who had been elected on 23 May and some holdover senators who had been elected in 1859. The legislature met at Wheeling on 1 July, filled the remainder of the state offices, completed the reorganization of a state government, and elected two United States senators who were recognized by the Federal government. Thus, there were two governments claiming to represent Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and the other to the Confederacy.

The pro-Northern restored government authorized the creation of the State of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that ultimately became West Virginia. On 20 August the Wheeling Convention called for a referendum on the formation of a new state and a convention to frame a new constitution. When the election was held on 24 October 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. This was a substantial minority of the voters in the western counties, however, because voters who favored succession from the Union boycotted the election. Other voters were prevented from voting because Confederate military forces occupied some of the counties. Thus, West Virginia was created by the people of Virginia acting through their Federally recognized state government.

On 13 May 1862 the legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of a new state and the legislature applied to the Federal Congress for admission to the Union. President Lincoln approved an enabling act on 31 December, provided that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery was contained in the state constitution. A revised constitution was adopted on 26 March 1863 and on 20 April Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the State of West Virginia to the Union effective 20 June.

Meanwhile, Governor Pierpoint's restored Commonwealth of Virginia government operated in the area of northern Virginia and the tidewater occupied by the Federal Army. Consequently, as far as Lincoln and the Federal government were concerned the legitimate government of Virginia was the restored government, with the Confederate Commonwealth government in Richmond being a illegal fiction.

So then, how was Lincoln's defense of the Constitution false? What is surprising, given the antipathy between the mountain folk and the planter aristocracy, is that it didn't happen in other states, eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia being examples.

Regards,
Don Dixon
There where proponents during the ACW of creating a new state "Nickajack from Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina. Unfortunately not enough support in the house and senate to create that state.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
Not understanding what was the downside of admitting West Virginia has a new state. Not seeing a valid argument that Lincoln violated the US Constitution since the US Supreme Court validated the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
You didn't get it quite right.

On 23 May 1861 the secession ordnance was ratified by a large majority of Virginia’s voters, but in the western counties that would ultimately form West Virginia the vote was 34,677 against and 19,121 in favor of ratification of the Ordinance. The Second Wheeling Convention met on 11 June and adopted "A Declaration of the People of Virginia," declaring that since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people all its acts were illegal. It further declared that all state office holders who adhered to the Ordinance of Secession had effectively vacated their offices and that the pro-secession government in Richmond was void.

The Convention passed an act for the reorganization of the Commonwealth government on 19 June. The following day Francis Harrison Pierpont (R) was chosen as governor of the “restored” government of Virginia, some other state officers were elected, and the convention adjourned. The legislature of the restored state government was composed of the house members from the western counties who had been elected on 23 May and some holdover senators who had been elected in 1859. The legislature met at Wheeling on 1 July, filled the remainder of the state offices, completed the reorganization of a state government, and elected two United States senators who were recognized by the Federal government. Thus, there were two governments claiming to represent Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and the other to the Confederacy.

The pro-Northern restored government authorized the creation of the State of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that ultimately became West Virginia. On 20 August the Wheeling Convention called for a referendum on the formation of a new state and a convention to frame a new constitution. When the election was held on 24 October 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. This was a substantial minority of the voters in the western counties, however, because voters who favored succession from the Union boycotted the election. Other voters were prevented from voting because Confederate military forces occupied some of the counties. Thus, West Virginia was created by the people of Virginia acting through their Federally recognized state government.

On 13 May 1862 the legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of a new state and the legislature applied to the Federal Congress for admission to the Union. President Lincoln approved an enabling act on 31 December, provided that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery was contained in the state constitution. A revised constitution was adopted on 26 March 1863 and on 20 April Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the State of West Virginia to the Union effective 20 June.

Meanwhile, Governor Pierpoint's restored Commonwealth of Virginia government operated in the area of northern Virginia and the tidewater occupied by the Federal Army. Consequently, as far as Lincoln and the Federal government were concerned the legitimate government of Virginia was the restored government, with the Confederate Commonwealth government in Richmond being a illegal fiction.

So then, how was Lincoln's defense of the Constitution false? What is surprising, given the antipathy between the mountain folk and the planter aristocracy, is that it didn't happen in other states, eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia being examples.

Regards,
Don Dixon
There where proponents during the ACW of creating a new state "Nickajack from Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina. Unfortunately not enough support in the house and senate to create that state.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The creation of west Virginia was a blunder by both Lincoln and west Virginia unionists. Western Virginian unionists could have enacted a new Virginia state constitution securing all of their pre war demands. Lincoln only hardened the will of confederates to keep fighting by his cavalier approach to the territorial integrity of states. The creation of west Virginia proves his [lincoln] claim of defending the constitution were false.
Not understanding what was the downside of admitting West Virginia has a new state. Not seeing a valid argument that Lincoln violated the US Constitution since the US Supreme Court validated the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
You didn't get it quite right.

On 23 May 1861 the secession ordnance was ratified by a large majority of Virginia’s voters, but in the western counties that would ultimately form West Virginia the vote was 34,677 against and 19,121 in favor of ratification of the Ordinance. The Second Wheeling Convention met on 11 June and adopted "A Declaration of the People of Virginia," declaring that since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people all its acts were illegal. It further declared that all state office holders who adhered to the Ordinance of Secession had effectively vacated their offices and that the pro-secession government in Richmond was void.

The Convention passed an act for the reorganization of the Commonwealth government on 19 June. The following day Francis Harrison Pierpont (R) was chosen as governor of the “restored” government of Virginia, some other state officers were elected, and the convention adjourned. The legislature of the restored state government was composed of the house members from the western counties who had been elected on 23 May and some holdover senators who had been elected in 1859. The legislature met at Wheeling on 1 July, filled the remainder of the state offices, completed the reorganization of a state government, and elected two United States senators who were recognized by the Federal government. Thus, there were two governments claiming to represent Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and the other to the Confederacy.

The pro-Northern restored government authorized the creation of the State of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that ultimately became West Virginia. On 20 August the Wheeling Convention called for a referendum on the formation of a new state and a convention to frame a new constitution. When the election was held on 24 October 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. This was a substantial minority of the voters in the western counties, however, because voters who favored succession from the Union boycotted the election. Other voters were prevented from voting because Confederate military forces occupied some of the counties. Thus, West Virginia was created by the people of Virginia acting through their Federally recognized state government.

On 13 May 1862 the legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of a new state and the legislature applied to the Federal Congress for admission to the Union. President Lincoln approved an enabling act on 31 December, provided that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery was contained in the state constitution. A revised constitution was adopted on 26 March 1863 and on 20 April Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the State of West Virginia to the Union effective 20 June.

Meanwhile, Governor Pierpoint's restored Commonwealth of Virginia government operated in the area of northern Virginia and the tidewater occupied by the Federal Army. Consequently, as far as Lincoln and the Federal government were concerned the legitimate government of Virginia was the restored government, with the Confederate Commonwealth government in Richmond being a illegal fiction.

So then, how was Lincoln's defense of the Constitution false? What is surprising, given the antipathy between the mountain folk and the planter aristocracy, is that it didn't happen in other states, eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia being examples.

Regards,
Don Dixon
There where proponents during the ACW of creating a new state "Nickajack from Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina. Unfortunately not enough support in the house and senate to create that state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._West_Virginia.
@atlantis
The soft ware on this site doesn't work with my phone but anyways there was no issues per the US Supreme Court on the constitutionality of the creation of West Virginia.
Leftyhunter
 

atlantis

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Unionists did not turn out in force to vote against ratification of the ordinance of secession. The so called restored gov't of Virginia was illegitimate from the start. Unionist lawmakers could and should have stayed in the state legislature.
 

NedBaldwin

Major
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
Unionists did not turn out in force to vote against ratification of the ordinance of secession. The so called restored gov't of Virginia was illegitimate from the start. Unionist lawmakers could and should have stayed in the state legislature.
Unionists lawmakers did stay in the state legislature. That’s what the restored government was — the legitimate legislature. The one In Richmond was illegitimate
 

atlantis

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Unionists lawmakers did stay in the state legislature. That’s what the restored government was — the legitimate legislature. The one In Richmond was illegitimate
The one in Richmond had been elected pre war in a legitimate election and did not become illegitimate because the secession convention enacted an ordinance of secession that was ratified by the voters.
 

NedBaldwin

Major
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
The one in Richmond had been elected pre war in a legitimate election and did not become illegitimate because the secession convention enacted an ordinance of secession that was ratified by the voters.
The one in wheeling had been elected in a legitimate election (same election as the so called legislators in Richmond) and stayed true to their constitutional oaths unlike the traitors in Richmond
 
Was’t the surrounding states supposed to approve of a new state that is within a group of states?
In Luther v. Borden (1849), the Supreme Court ruled that when there were two governments claiming to be the legitimate government of the state, Congress and the President had the absolute authority to determine which of the two was the legitimate government.
The Pierpoint government was recognized as the legitimate government of Virginia by both the U.S. Congress and the President. Once that happened, the Pierpoint government gave its consent to allow a portion of Virginia to become a new state, which complied with the the U.S. Constitution and paved the way for the new state of West Virginia.
 

NedBaldwin

Major
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
The oath of office was to the Commonwealth of Virginia and no other entity.
US Constitution says " ... the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution..."

State lawmakers say an oath to the US Constitution before taking office. They do it now, they did it then (except those that rebelled)
 
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