Were Confederate Generals Traitors?

[CMWinkler]

Were Confederate Generals Traitors?

By Walter E. Williams | June 27, 2017 | 8:37 AM EDT



Expired Image Removed
At the 150th anniversary of the Civil War's Battle of Chancellorsville, a Confederate re-enactor issues orders to troops to get them into position during the re-enactment of Maj. Gen. Stonewall Jackson's flank attack against the Union XI Corps. (DOD Photo/Sgt. 1st Class Raymond J. Piper, Soldiers Live)
My "Rewriting American History" column of a fortnight ago, about the dismantling of Confederate monuments, generated considerable mail.

Some argued there should not be statues honoring traitors such as Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis, who fought against the Union. Victors of wars get to write the history, and the history they write often does not reflect the facts. Let's look at some of the facts and ask: Did the South have a right to secede from the Union? If it did, we can't label Confederate generals as traitors.

More: http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/walter-e-williams/were-confederate-generals-traitors#disqus_thread

 

[DaveGberg]

I do agree that a state cannot simply nullify a federal law, at least not easily or without consequence. But the remainder of your statement doesn't make sense. The 10th Amendment is part of the Constitution...meaning it, like all other parts, has full force of the Constitution. Either something is Constitutional or it's not. You make it sound as if the 10th or any other amendment is a less-than the actual original text. Simply not true.

I don't know what I said that would lead you to believe that. All I've said is that before a state can assert a power via the 10th A then the state needs to show that it doesn't conflict with an existing power defined under the constitution

 

[huskerblitz]

I don't know what I said that would lead you to believe that. All I've said is that before a state can assert a power via the 10th A then the state needs to show that it doesn't conflict with an existing power defined under the constitution

It was in the wording of it. And the judicial branch is the one that determines if a conflict exists...we've seen that many, many, many times.

 

[JohnW.]

I would have to say in the most literal interpretation of treason....yes they were guilty as sin, but NOT just the generals, ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN who bore or bears arms against The United States of America is guilty of treason.

trea·son
ˈtrēzən/
noun
noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

1. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
   "they were convicted of treason"
   synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
   sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
   high treason, lèse-majesté;
   apostasy;
   literaryperfidy
   "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
   antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • the action of betraying someone or something.
     plural noun: treasons
     "doubt is the ultimate treason against faith"
     synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
     sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
     high treason, lèse-majesté;
     apostasy;
     literaryperfidy
     "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
     antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • historical
     the crime of murdering someone to whom the murderer owed allegiance, such as a master or husband.
     noun: petty treason; plural noun: petty treasons

Origin

Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French treisoun, from Latin traditio(n-) 'handing over,' from the verb tradere .
Translate treason to
Use over time for: treason

 

[DaveGberg]

It was in the wording of it. And the judicial branch is the one that determines if a conflict exists...we've seen that many, many, many times.

Welp, I agree with you're last sentence and hopefully I've cleared up any perceptions

Cheers

 

[huskerblitz]

I would have to say in the most literal interpretation of treason....yes they were guilty as sin, but NOT just the generals, ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN who bore or bears arms against The United States of America is guilty of treason.

trea·son
ˈtrēzən/
noun
noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

1. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
   "they were convicted of treason"
   synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
   sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
   high treason, lèse-majesté;
   apostasy;
   literaryperfidy
   "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
   antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • the action of betraying someone or something.
     plural noun: treasons
     "doubt is the ultimate treason against faith"
     synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
     sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
     high treason, lèse-majesté;
     apostasy;
     literaryperfidy
     "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
     antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • historical
     the crime of murdering someone to whom the murderer owed allegiance, such as a master or husband.
     noun: petty treason; plural noun: petty treasons

Origin
View attachment 145670
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French treisoun, from Latin traditio(n-) 'handing over,' from the verb tradere .
Translate treason to
Use over time for: treason
View attachment 145669

We still run into issues here, though. There was no trial to convict or prove that a crime existed. Is OJ a murderer? No, not in our legal system because there was no conviction. And shouldn't we use the Constitutionally definition of the word since it is the basis of it?

 

[NedBaldwin]

Imagine a black man peddling a pro-Southern political agenda, who would have thought it especially those among the virtuous contingent.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but whites dont have a monopoly on fools and charlatans.

 

[NedBaldwin]

We still run into issues here, though. There was no trial to convict or prove that a crime existed. Is OJ a murderer? No, not in our legal system because there was no conviction. And shouldn't we use the Constitutionally definition of the word since it is the basis of it?

OJ was not convicted because there was doubt that he did it.
Is there doubt that the Confederate generals led rebel forces in the war?
Is there doubt, for example, that Lee commanded an army that levied war against the US (the Constitutional definition)?
If you are claiming there is doubt, then this is a new approach to this topic.

 

[CSA Today]

Sorry to pop your bubble, but whites dont have a monopoly on fools and charlatans.

No need to apologize, I agree with your assessment.

 

[huskerblitz]

OJ was not convicted because there was doubt that he did it.
Is there doubt that the Confederate generals led rebel forces in the war?
Is there doubt, for example, that Lee commanded an army that levied war against the US (the Constitutional definition)?
If you are claiming there is doubt, then this is a new approach to this topic.

Again, depends on who one asks about doubt. But that's the thing...you generally need a court and/or jury to determine that status of it. I've known people where there was absolutely NO DOUBT they were drunk when driving yet were not convicted. We have a legal system to determine such things. There were no trials to determine whether Confederates were indeed traitors.

 

[Bee]

I would have to say in the most literal interpretation of treason....yes they were guilty as sin, but NOT just the generals, ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN who bore or bears arms against The United States of America is guilty of treason.

trea·son
ˈtrēzən/
noun
noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

1. the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
   "they were convicted of treason"
   synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
   sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
   high treason, lèse-majesté;
   apostasy;
   literaryperfidy
   "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
   antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • the action of betraying someone or something.
     plural noun: treasons
     "doubt is the ultimate treason against faith"
     synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
     sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion;
     high treason, lèse-majesté;
     apostasy;
     literaryperfidy
     "the treason of Benedict Arnold will be recounted for centuries"
     antonyms: allegiance, loyalty
   • historical
     the crime of murdering someone to whom the murderer owed allegiance, such as a master or husband.
     noun: petty treason; plural noun: petty treasons

Origin
View attachment 145670
Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French treisoun, from Latin traditio(n-) 'handing over,' from the verb tradere .
Translate treason to
Use over time for: treason
View attachment 145669

Treason is one of the most clearly defined Articles in the Constitution - no need for additional definitions.

A couple of thoughts always come to mind when this topic comes up

1. Why were pardons needed if there was no crime committed?
2. Does a pardon absolve the crime, or is it a release from punishment?​

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3 - The U.S. Constitution Online

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Pardon.aspx
Pardon Definition - Duhaime.org

EDIT (full Constitution definition of Treason corrected due to program glitch) "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

 

[jgoodguy]

It was in the wording of it. And the judicial branch is the one that determines if a conflict exists...we've seen that many, many, many times.

Maybe. Generally speaking political conflicts are not ruled on by the SCOTUS. A state of war might be confirmed for legal reasons as in the Prize cases or the legal consequences of a failed rebellion as in Texas v White.

 

[jgoodguy]

If we are speaking of the high crime of treason, then a trial is proof.
Treasonous acts have a much lower bar.
Committed treason also has a low bar.

 

[huskerblitz]

Treason is one of the most clearly defined Articles in the Constitution - no need for additional definitions.

A couple of thoughts always come to mind when this topic comes up

1. Why were pardons needed if there was no crime committed?
2. Does a pardon absolve the crime, or is it a release from punishment?​

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3 - The U.S. Constitution Online

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Pardon.aspx
Pardon Definition - Duhaime.org

But you don't have to have a conviction before a pardon can be granted. We saw that in Watergate. A president can issue a pardon at any time and is basically unlimited.

 

[jgoodguy]

Treason is one of the most clearly defined Articles in the Constitution - no need for additional definitions.

A couple of thoughts always come to mind when this topic comes up

1. Why were pardons needed if there was no crime committed?
2. Does a pardon absolve the crime, or is it a release from punishment?​

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3 - The U.S. Constitution Online

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Pardon.aspx
Pardon Definition - Duhaime.org

Never quote the Constitutional definition of treason without the whole thing.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Under the Constitution all the above must happen before we get Constitutional Treason.

 

[jgoodguy]

But you don't have to have a conviction before a pardon can be granted. We saw that in Watergate. A president can issue a pardon at any time and is basically unlimited.

A blanket pardon or amnesty is common after a war to get on with things.

 

[NedBaldwin]

But that's the thing...you generally need a court and/or jury to determine that status of it. I've known people where there was absolutely NO DOUBT they were drunk when driving yet were not convicted.

A confusing statement -- is there "absolutely NO DOUBT" they were drunk or not?

We have a legal system to determine such things. There were no trials to determine whether Confederates were indeed traitors.

There were court rulings that concluded secession and the associated rebellion were treason.
We dont need a court ruling to show that Confederate generals levied war against the US during that rebellion; they never hid from their role.

 

[Bee]

Never quote the Constitutional definition of treason without the whole thing.
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Under the Constitution all the above must happen before we get Constitutional Treason.

I get your admonishment- my quote/link was shortened by the tablet program: the whole Article was supposed to appear with the link.

 

[huskerblitz]

Maybe. Generally speaking political conflicts are not ruled on by the SCOTUS. A state of war might be confirmed for legal reasons as in the Prize cases or the legal consequences of a failed rebellion as in Texas v White.

My reply was based on Constitutional conflicts where a state may pass something not in line with the Constitution, which SCOTUS has original jurisdiction. There is nothing preventing an unconstitutional law from being written or passed, but it takes a judicial ruling to nullify it.

 

[jgoodguy]

A case can be made that everyone in the CSA under the sovereignty of the CSA was a traitor. Traitor sort of losing it punch in that view if an old widow women donating her wedding ring to the CSA and a poor farmer dragged off his farm to serve the CSA and even a little girl with her kittens in the path of the Union Army are all traitors.

 

[JohnW.]

Treason is one of the most clearly defined Articles in the Constitution - no need for additional definitions.

A couple of thoughts always come to mind when this topic comes up

1. Why were pardons needed if there was no crime committed?
2. Does a pardon absolve the crime, or is it a release from punishment?​

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3 - The U.S. Constitution Online

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Pardon.aspx
Pardon Definition - Duhaime.org

Those are 2 very good points I didn't think of....well said and thank you