Was John Pope a miscreant?

[Saruman]

Lee famously called Pope a miscreant. Do you think it has basis in this account?

After the battle of Buena Vista in 1847, Lieutenant John Pope and a friend "kidnapped two Mexican women, one only 14 years old… for carnal purposes. [These girls]… live with them now, and ride [throughout] the city with them in defiance of decency in an open carriage."

Source: Letter from Braxton Bragg to Samuel French, 13 October 1847.

Is this account by Bragg accurate? Or was he exaggerating? Are there any other sources for this?

 

[JeffBrooks]

If the letter was written in 1847, why would Bragg have referred to that year in the letter itself, as if he was referring to something that happened long in the past?

Since it is December of 2017, if I were writing a letter about something that happened in September, I would not say it happened "in 2017" but that it happened "in September".

 

[Saruman]

If the letter was written in 1847, why would Bragg have referred to that year in the letter itself, as if he was referring to something that happened long in the past?

Since it is December of 2017, if I were writing a letter about something that happened in September, I would not say it happened "in 2017" but that it happened "in September".

Only the parts in quotations are from Bragg's letter.

 

[FarawayFriend]

Lee famously called Pope a miscreant. Do you think it has basis in this account?

After the battle of Buena Vista in 1847, Lieutenant John Pope and a friend "kidnapped two Mexican women, one only 14 years old… for carnal purposes. [These girls]… live with them now, and ride [throughout] the city with them in defiance of decency in an open carriage."

Source: Letter from Braxton Bragg to Samuel French, 13 October 1847.

Is this account by Bragg accurate? Or was he exaggerating? Are there any other sources for this?

I think "miscreant" is probably the strongest expletive Robert E. Lee was capable of.
Union (!) Major General Fitz John Porter used a term more familiar to us today, that starts with an "a" and ends with "ss" (outstarred in the text below):

Pope's first substantive orders to his "Army of Virginia" dictated not the movement of his troops, but the behavior of his army. He permitted men under his command to requisition food from Virginia farmers. He demanded oaths of loyalty from male civilians within Union lines in Virginia. He dictated that local civilians would be held liable for damage done by Confederate raiders. By modern standards, these measures seem mild. But in mid-summer 1862, they seemed radical and, to some Unionists, offensive. Leading the chorus of disapproval were McClellan and his closest confidant, Major General Fitz John Porter. Porter labeled Pope an "***," and predicted, "if the theory he proclaims is practiced, you may look for disaster."
Another military officer in Virginia likewise reacted to Pope's verbose presence in Virginia: Robert E. Lee, the newly minted commander of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Lee called Pope a "miscreant" (strong language indeed from Lee) and declared that he "must be suppressed."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/miscreant-suppressed

 

[jackt62]

Pope's actions in 1862 were simply a harbinger of the way the war would come to be fought in the following years.

 

[Saruman]

I think "miscreant" is probably the strongest expletive Robert E. Lee was capable of.
Union (!) Major General Fitz John Porter used a term more familiar to us today, that starts with an "a" and ends with "ss" (outstarred in the text below):

Pope's first substantive orders to his "Army of Virginia" dictated not the movement of his troops, but the behavior of his army. He permitted men under his command to requisition food from Virginia farmers. He demanded oaths of loyalty from male civilians within Union lines in Virginia. He dictated that local civilians would be held liable for damage done by Confederate raiders. By modern standards, these measures seem mild. But in mid-summer 1862, they seemed radical and, to some Unionists, offensive. Leading the chorus of disapproval were McClellan and his closest confidant, Major General Fitz John Porter. Porter labeled Pope an "***," and predicted, "if the theory he proclaims is practiced, you may look for disaster."
Another military officer in Virginia likewise reacted to Pope's verbose presence in Virginia: Robert E. Lee, the newly minted commander of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Lee called Pope a "miscreant" (strong language indeed from Lee) and declared that he "must be suppressed."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/miscreant-suppressed

Union General Samuel D. Sturgis also said: "I don't care for John Pope one pinch of owl dung."

 

[atlantis]

Yet that fighting spirit is just what the US needed to win the war. The CS was not going to be defeated without breaking the will of the people.

 

[mofederal]

Actually the word for Pope would be pervert, or pedophile. I had never heard that story before. I guess it is one of these what happens in Mexico stays in Mexico things. I would guess Bragg is the only source for the story. A sordid mess indeed. I am surprised his behavior was excused even then. I know people are always just people, but I would suspect that he never had that many friends in the Army, especially dating back to the Mexican War. I think miscreant was not a strong enough word to describe Pope.

 

[chucksr]

If true, the story about kidnapping teenage girls for sexual pleasure would, at the least, make Pope a "miscreant"-- or worse. There is a bit of Bernard Montgomery in Pope--as you recall Pope came east to "...as a god come to cleanse the temple" (The Army of the Potomac) and in one fatal shot darned near wrecked it at Second Bull Run. Pope does not enjoy a good reputation as a Union general officer.

 

[Saruman]

Are there any biographies of Pope and has anyone read them? Is this incident in 1847 mentioned?

Bragg effectively calls Pope a rapist and pedophile, later on Lee calls him a miscreant, Porter calls him an a s s, and Sturgis compares him to owl dung. Must have been a great guy

 

[mofederal]

I would guess Pope is one of those who generals who does not inspire confidence. He could have used a publicists or at least a speech writer. He insults everyone in the Army, and I don't think he knew how to clean an outhouse. Pope seems to be an outright idiot at best and a whole lot of things second. I have yet to go into his fighting abilities. I would say Lee did suppress him very effectively. Pope did not really direct any of the fighting in the west, against the Lakota It was Alfred Sully who won him those victories, maybe Pope knew his limitations.

 

[Bruce Vail]

Lee's description of Pope as a miscreant was the result of Pope's policies of using the army against the Confederate civilian population, not sexual adventures from the Mexican War.

 

[Bruce Vail]

I think "miscreant" is probably the strongest expletive Robert E. Lee was capable of.
Union (!) Major General Fitz John Porter used a term more familiar to us today, that starts with an "a" and ends with "ss" (outstarred in the text below):

Pope's first substantive orders to his "Army of Virginia" dictated not the movement of his troops, but the behavior of his army. He permitted men under his command to requisition food from Virginia farmers. He demanded oaths of loyalty from male civilians within Union lines in Virginia. He dictated that local civilians would be held liable for damage done by Confederate raiders. By modern standards, these measures seem mild. But in mid-summer 1862, they seemed radical and, to some Unionists, offensive. Leading the chorus of disapproval were McClellan and his closest confidant, Major General Fitz John Porter. Porter labeled Pope an "***," and predicted, "if the theory he proclaims is practiced, you may look for disaster."
Another military officer in Virginia likewise reacted to Pope's verbose presence in Virginia: Robert E. Lee, the newly minted commander of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Lee called Pope a "miscreant" (strong language indeed from Lee) and declared that he "must be suppressed."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/miscreant-suppressed

Lee's description of Pope as a miscreant was the result of Pope's policies of using the army against the Confederate civilian population, not sexual adventures from the Mexican War.

 

[archieclement]

I think "miscreant" is probably the strongest expletive Robert E. Lee was capable of.
Union (!) Major General Fitz John Porter used a term more familiar to us today, that starts with an "a" and ends with "ss" (outstarred in the text below):

Pope's first substantive orders to his "Army of Virginia" dictated not the movement of his troops, but the behavior of his army. He permitted men under his command to requisition food from Virginia farmers. He demanded oaths of loyalty from male civilians within Union lines in Virginia. He dictated that local civilians would be held liable for damage done by Confederate raiders. By modern standards, these measures seem mild. But in mid-summer 1862, they seemed radical and, to some Unionists, offensive. Leading the chorus of disapproval were McClellan and his closest confidant, Major General Fitz John Porter. Porter labeled Pope an "***," and predicted, "if the theory he proclaims is practiced, you may look for disaster."
Another military officer in Virginia likewise reacted to Pope's verbose presence in Virginia: Robert E. Lee, the newly minted commander of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Lee called Pope a "miscreant" (strong language indeed from Lee) and declared that he "must be suppressed."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/miscreant-suppressed

"He permitted men under his command to requisition food from Virginia farmers. He demanded oaths of loyalty from male civilians within Union lines in Virginia. He dictated that local civilians would be held liable for damage done by Confederate raiders"

That's just a continuation of what Pope and Hurlbut did here in Missouri in 1861 while in the field against the MSG.

Look at Popes general order no 3 dated july 31 1861 issued from Mexico Mo in OR, it detailed committees to assess the cost of Union troops being required to maintain the peace, which was later expanded to assess property damages to the citizens too

as to reqiuistion read Hurbuts To the county authorities of Marion county mo 1861 dated Aug 11 1861 where he required a list of provisions to be delivered every day. "the county of Marion will be also held responsible and compelled to pay all cost of transportation , ect, of this expedition and of its support while we are here" He also threatened to if the provisions weren't supplied to billet his command in private residences..............

Heres one of my favorites
Brigade headquarters
Hudson Mo Aug 19th 1861

To the mayor and Authorities of the city of Palmyra, State of Missouri:
You are hereby notified and required to deliver up to the military authorities of this brigade within six day of the presents, the marauders who fired on the train bound west on the Hannibal and St Joe railroad, on the evening of the 16th inst.,and broke into the telegraph office

If the guilty person are not delivered up as required, and within the time herein specified, the whole brigade will moved into your county, and contributions levied to the amount of $10000 on Marion County, and $5000 against the city of Palmyra
By order of
Brig Gen S A Hurlbut
Under directions of Brig Gen John Pope, commanding in North Missouri .
S M Preston asst adj gen

If he with 600 soldiers couldn't capture and deliver up the marauders, how did he expect the mayor and sheriff who had 0 soldiers to do so................ this one was fortunately countermanded by General Fremont. And they couldn't figure out why the opposition to them was growing as they ran around just arbitrarily assigning blame and damages..........

 

[E_just_E]

Sad, however in the 19th century the age of consent varied between 10 and 16 depending on the time of the Century and State. 14 year old was well in that range.

Edit: in the 1840s it was 10 and raised to 12 in the 1860s.

 

[archieclement]

not sure if Hurbuts requisition list is in OR or not, it required every day by 9am in lbs
412 of bacon or salt pork
691 of fresh bread
44 beans
55 coffee
82 1/2 sugar
22 soap
550 potatos
5 1/2 gallons of vinegar
2 3/4 gallons of molasses
water sufficient for command to be hauled

 

[Hawkeye Brehm]

Lee's description of Pope as a miscreant was the result of Pope's policies of using the army against the Confederate civilian population, not sexual adventures from the Mexican War.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The Bragg anecdote is interesting, but it's completely separate from Lee's description of Pope.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Actually the word for Pope would be pervert, or pedophile. I had never heard that story before. I guess it is one of these what happens in Mexico stays in Mexico things. I would guess Bragg is the only source for the story. A sordid mess indeed. I am surprised his behavior was excused even then. I know people are always just people, but I would suspect that he never had that many friends in the Army, especially dating back to the Mexican War. I think miscreant was not a strong enough word to describe Pope.

This shocked me:
"Like France, many other countries, increased the age of consent to 13 in the 19th century. Nations, such as Portugal, Spain, Denmark and the Swiss cantons, that adopted or mirrored the Napoleonic code likewise initially set the age of consent at 10-12 years and then raised it to between 13 and 16 years in the second half of the 19th century. In 1875, England raised the age to 13 years; an act of sexual intercourse with a girl younger than 13 was a felony. In the U.S., each state determined its own criminal law and age of consent ranged from 10 to 12 years of age. U.S. laws did not change in the wake of England's shift. Nor did Anglo-American law apply to boys."
Age of Consent Laws

 

[Hawkeye Brehm]

This shocked me:
"Like France, many other countries, increased the age of consent to 13 in the 19th century. Nations, such as Portugal, Spain, Denmark and the Swiss cantons, that adopted or mirrored the Napoleonic code likewise initially set the age of consent at 10-12 years and then raised it to between 13 and 16 years in the second half of the 19th century. In 1875, England raised the age to 13 years; an act of sexual intercourse with a girl younger than 13 was a felony. In the U.S., each state determined its own criminal law and age of consent ranged from 10 to 12 years of age. U.S. laws did not change in the wake of England's shift. Nor did Anglo-American law apply to boys."
Age of Consent Laws

Americans are weird...

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

The fact the age question even came up as a matter of law means there were an awful lot of men willing to take perverse advantage that no law existed. What's shocking is there needed to be a law on the books, with age being ever forced upwards.

First person to say a 13 year old girl of the day thought it normal gets a candy cane where it does damage.

Age of consent- 10 years, you just know the family income level and ability to defend children was around as low as the little girl's age, when the pedophile came knocking on the door.

Americans are weird...

Well, we have a list..... it is pretty long.