Was it worth it?

I am a staunch believer in the Union but I wonder was it worth it to fight a war to save the union? By that I mean ,what is the gain of fighting to bring the south back into the union? Isnt it obvious the south did not want to be part of the union?..that they preferred an aristocracy over democracy? that they wanted the freedom to enslave? and they hated free states? and have resisted the modern era since then?

I freely admit the North is and was very racist but we dont build statues to those that try to destroy what we consider our nation..but even today Southerners sing the praises of those that tried to destroy this nation..

I would like to think of us as one nation but when I see the flag of disunion flying even today ..150 years later, I wonder what was gained by all this fighting..If they still feel this way maybe it was a mistake to force them back.

I hate to ask but in view of history since then did those union men die in vain?

Please tell me I am wrong that there is something I just dont get I look forward to hearing your thoughts...especially if you're from the south..

Really provocative thought----I have been thinking about what you wrote above and will continue to think about it for awhile. The first thing that strikes me is what if Lincoln had just let us go---Would we have gone anywhere? Deep South, maybe, for a little while---But when the reality of forming a government and the cost of same kicked in ---Would even the deep South had stayed out for long? I have a coupon bond from the era with only one coupon missing, which means of course, that only one was paid. The South was broke almost from the beginning---the war was center of everything. Without the war? I wonder if the people would have supported a new government? Even with the war they did not like the Confederate government much. Anyway, I'll think on this some more. Lincoln chose to let the South fire first which he wanted politically and they were not smart enough to wait. The threat of invasion then caused the upper South to go out and the war was on. Politics then and today are mean business. By the way, all the new Southerners living down here from such states as New Jersey, New York, and Mass. are most considerate in telling the natives how they used to do things back home. A friend of mine told me not long ago that the South has been on terrorist alert since 1861. Just kidding, of course.
 
Every boy was ordered in, to pass before this female sorceress, that she might select a victim for her unprovoked malice, and on whom to pour the vials of her wrath for years. I was that unlucky fellow. Mr. Campbell, my grandfather, objected, because it would divide a family, and offered her Moses, whose father and mother had been sold South.

So Campbell objects to separating a boy from his parents, and as an alternative proposes that Mrs. Banton take a boy that Campbell has already separated from his parents? And Campbell, the slave owner, is the boy's grandfather? And rather than refusing flat out to allow his own grandson to be separated from his parents, "Mr. Campbell went out to hunt and drive away bad thoughts?"

I'm guessing that, as a slave holder whose conscience was not completely dead, Mr. Campbell spent a lot of time "driving away bad thoughts."
 
So Campbell objects to separating a boy from his parents, and as an alternative proposes that Mrs. Banton take a boy that Campbell has already separated from his parents? And Campbell, the slave owner, is the boy's grandfather? And rather than refusing flat out to allow his own grandson to be separated from his parents, "Mr. Campbell went out to hunt and drive away bad thoughts?"

I'm guessing that, as a slave holder whose conscience was not completely dead, Mr. Campbell spent a lot of time "driving away bad thoughts."

Not to mention that they had already given away a boy and a girl as a wedding dowry.
 
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This argument that free market capitalism is worse than slavery seems strange to me, but there's nothing new about it:

"Slavery relieves our slaves of these cares altogether, and slavery is a form, and the very best form, of socialism. In fact, the ordinary wages of common labor are insufficient to keep up separate domestic establshments for each of the poor, and association or starvation is in many cases inevitable. In free society, as well in Europe as in America, this i

Okay thats crazy! Thanks for posting this. I remember a passage in Frehling's "Road to Disunion" where they were throwing the word "Communist" around as a perjorative (in the late 1850s). At the time I read that it puzzled me but I have since read more stuff. Was this guy using the word "Socialism" in the European, Marxist sense?
 
Okay thats crazy! Thanks for posting this. I remember a passage in Frehling's "Road to Disunion" where they were throwing the word "Communist" around as a perjorative (in the late 1850s). At the time I read that it puzzled me but I have since read more stuff. Was this guy using the word "Socialism" in the European, Marxist sense?

I suppose whether it's Marxist or not is a subjective matter. I'll give you a couple more quotes (and refer you to the full source, which I linked earlier) so you can decide for yourself:

"Social centralization arises from the laissez-faire system just as national centralization. A few individuals possessed of capital and cunning acquire a power to employ the laboring class on such terms as they please, and they seldom fail to use that power. Hence, the numbers and destitution of the poor in free society are daily increasing, the numbers of the middle or independent class diminishing, and the few rich men growing hourly richer. Free trade occasions a vast and useless, probably a very noxious waste of capital and labor, ... "

"Consequences; the very opposite of the doctrine of free trade, result from this doctrine of ours. It makes each society a band of brothers, working for the common good, instead of a bag of cats biting and worrying each other. The competitive system is a system of antagonism and war; ours of peace and fraternity. The first is the system of free society; the other that of slave society. The Greek, the Roman, Judaistic, Egyptian, and all ancient polities, were founded on our theory... In ancient times, the individual was considered nothing, the State every thing."


- George Fitzhugh​
 
I'd be curious to know what "scholars" have made that argument. Immigrants CHOSE to come to this country. How many people CHOSE slavery? How many factory workers had their children sold away from them, or were themselves sold away from their spouses? How many patrollers and "Fugitive Factory Worker Laws" were employed to prevent factory workers from escaping from the North into the South?

This argument that free market capitalism is worse than slavery seems strange to me, but there's nothing new about it:

"Slavery relieves our slaves of these cares altogether, and slavery is a form, and the very best form, of socialism. In fact, the ordinary wages of common labor are insufficient to keep up separate domestic establshments for each of the poor, and association or starvation is in many cases inevitable. In free society, as well in Europe as in America, this is the accepted theory, and various schemes have been resorted to, all without success, to cure the evil. The association of labor properly carried out under a comman head or ruler, would render labor more efficient, relieve the laborer of many of the cares of household affairs, and protect and support him in sickness and old age, besides preventing the too great reduction of wages by redundancy of labor and free competition. Slavery attains all these results. What else will?"

George Fitzhugh, Sociology for the South, or the Failure of Free Society

Source: <http://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/fitzhughsoc/fitzhugh.html
Any figures on how many free men decided to become slaves for all the benefits of it?? :)
 
I am going out the door but I will respond with scholar who have made this arguement for well over 100 years. Yes, the real slaves lacked freedom but they had value and were usually treated well -at least kept health. Wage slqaves were expendable. You didnt have to worry about their safety. If they died u really lost nothing and there were others ready to take their place.

One can be in a state of slavery even if there are no bars and chains.

Got to run. will respond to your question.

Are you serious? Slaves were well treated? you can see no difference between hard work for minimum wages and a system which would allow someone to see your daughter down the river into bondage to be abused and used, whipped and never seen again? tell me how many free men volunteered for that safety and security of slavery you so eagerly promote..
 
I have to disagree with the scholars. Just some thoughts:

(a) I am not sure if it is true that the material circumstances of the average slave were better than that of the average immigrant. Assertions have been made to this effect, but I myself have not seen where this is borne out by a detailed quantitative or qualitative analysis of data from the era.

(b) I have a problem with this comparison of the average slave with the average immigrant. Why are we using the experience of the most exploited, poorest, and most discriminated-against group of white Americans as a standard for judging how bad it was to be a slave? The majority of free white men probably didn't want to live like either of these two groups.

To really want to understand how bad slavery was, we need to compare the experience of the average slave with the experience of the average free white person. Any other comparisons are contrivances, IMO.

(c) Both slaves and immigrants were exploited workers, but the condition of being owned - i.e., being human chattel - introduces living conditions that defy quantitative analysis. And so, looking at material circumstances inevitably fails to disclose how difficult it was to be a slave.

For example: the bond between husband and wife, parent and child, between family, is priceless, and has a value beyond measure. We know that many slaves families were split during the age of slavery. What was the cost of that? We don't have numbers for it.

I am reminded of the story of Celia, a slave:

In 1850, 60-year-old Robert Newsom, a prosperous farmer, traveled forty miles from his home in Callaway County, Missouri to neighboring Audrain County to buy a slave. Newsom was the head of a large and complex household that included several of his grown children, grandchildren, and five enslaved boys and men. His wife had died a few years earlier, a consideration that may have influenced his decision to purchase a female slave, a fourteen-year-old girl named Celia.

From the first day, Newsom treated Celia as his concubine. Testimony given before the Missouri Supreme Court in 1855 indicates that Newsom raped Celia for the first time on the journey home from the slave market. He installed her in a small cabin behind his house, where he continued to rape her on a regular basis over the next five years. During that time, she gave birth to two children.

In the spring of 1855, Celia began a relationship with George, another slave on the farm, and soon discovered that she was pregnant again. At George's urging, Celia approached Newsom's daughters and pled with them to protect her from their father during her pregnancy. The oldest daughter, Mary, later testified that Celia had threatened to hurt Newsom if he came to her cabin again, but there is no evidence that either she or her sister intervened.

On the night of June 23, 1855, Robert Newsom went to Celia's cabin, no doubt intent on raping her yet again. He never returned to his own home.

Although Celia was never allowed to testify in her own defense, investigators reconstructed the events of the night through a combination of physical evidence and Celia's confession. Fearful of Newsom, Celia had hidden a hefty stick in a corner of her cabin. When Newsom attacked her that night, Celia retrieved her weapon and beat him to death with it. She then dismembered the body and burned it to ashes in her fireplace. The next morning, Celia offered Newsom's eleven-year-old grandson two dozen walnuts in exchange for his help cleaning out the fireplace and spreading the ashes in the yard.

The jury that convicted Celia of murder accepted her confession as fact, but some elements of her tale do not ring true. As Melton McLaurin observes in his book, Celia, A Slave, the task of cutting enough wood and tending the roaring fire necessary to consume a human corpse in a single night "would have taxed the strength of a healthy woman, and Celia was pregnant and sick" (McLaurin, 49). McLaurin implies that George either helped Celia or was primarily responsible for Newsom's demise and that Celia may have lied to protect him. George disappeared shortly after the murder and was never arrested or charged.

Celia stood trial for Newsom's murder in October of 1855 (State of Missouri v. Celia, a Slave). Her lawyer, John Jameson, argued that Celia was legally entitled to defend herself from a would-be rapist under an 1845 law that made any attempt "to take any woman unlawfully against her will and by force, menace or duress, compel her to be defiled" a felony. He requested that the jury be instructed that "The words "any woman" in the first clause of the 29th section, of second article of laws of Missouri for 1845, concerning crimes & punishments, embrace slave women, as well as free white women."

The judge, William Augustus Hall, refused to honor the defense's motion. Instead, he instructed the jury that a slave had no right to resist her master, even in the case of sexual assault. The jury found Celia guilty and sentenced her to death. (Celia's child was delivered stillborn in prison.)

The Missouri Supreme Court denied her appeal, and she was hanged on December 21, 1855.​

This is a horrible story, and could only happen in the case of someone who was owned by another person. But here's another aspect of the story: as I recall, Celia was treated well materially. As Newsom's concubine, she was treated with favor versus the other slaves. I believe she had her own little cabin, apart from other slaves, and I guess that she was better fed and better clothed. Being a veritable sex slave had material benefits.

But I don't know that many immigrant families who would want their own teenage child to go through that, just to live more comfortably.

I don't know what metrics there are to account for these types of experiences, but they or some alternative are essential for coming to grips with the issues involved in human ownership.

- Alan
So very true..but to slave apologists working for horrible wages is no different from having your children taken from you and sold into a life of hardship and abuse,,,great family values, dont you agree?
 
Are you serious? Slaves were well treated? you can see no difference between hard work for minimum wages and a system which would allow someone to see your daughter down the river into bondage to be abused and used, whipped and never seen again? tell me how many free men volunteered for that safety and security of slavery you so eagerly promote..

I do not "eagerly promote" slavery. My point is that is was a fact of existence at that time. Its funny how on the Afleck thread that is trending so strong now that many people can understand when their ancestors were slave holders, but, in the abstract, it is incomprehensible as a way of life AT THAT TIME. You want to push family and it being torn asunder. What about dowries and fixed marriages in which the wife had no say?

My main contention is, why is it that you feel you have to carry the candle for the black race? Do you feel they are incapable of defending themselves? Do you think eurpoean immigants were on easy street when they hit our shores.

I hold ZERO malice toward the black race. I just cant understand, in a day in which equality is suppose to reign, you hold two different standards - one for the suffering of blacks and one for the suffering of whites.

I think if you were color blind, you would see the suffering of both as equal.
 
Of course it was worth it!
If we (the North) would have lost the Civil War we wouldn't have NASCAR!!!
But seriously; yes the Civil War was worth it. It set the stage for industrial and military technology that propelled America into being the powerhouse that it was in the 20th century. Remember that we would have had more than just the US and CSA in the area we presently call the United States. Possibly as many as 5 countries would have occupied the same area. This continent would have been as fragmented as Europe was at the start of WW1, possibly fighting ourselves here rather than "over there". And don't get me started on WWII and how the Allies would have been hard pressed to win were it not for the US.
 
IMO.
1. Not every person in the South supported secession. All you have to do is look at how many people, of both races living in the states where the rebellion arose, joined the Union as soon as they could.
2. The "South didn't leave." There was no CSA, no other nation ever recognized it as a nation. Therefore it was a failed rebellion.
3. As it was a rebellion, the federal government had a moral duty to defeat it.
What we have done since the defeat of the rebellion as far as race relations is irrelevant.
 

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