Forrest Was Forrest a Bad Commander?

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

"Personally I find the man the scum of the earth"

Luke, I believe a thought like that will forever block you from appreciating his military performances.

It doesn't have to.

From what I know of Napoleon (I don't recommend starting with Frank McLynn's biography), I find him personally unlikable, and most of his family and peers were no better. While that limits my interest in him, I can still appreciate his military accomplishments. Despite my personal dislike of him, and his self-ruinous thirst for conquest, I can appreciate he also made positive changes for Europe. I'll still watch the upcoming biopic about him out of curiosity (and what seems like good casting).

It should be possible to give Forrest credit for his tactical accomplishments despite disgust for him as a person (or even while criticizing his other weaknesses as a general commanding cavalry units). Especially since he's been dead for 146 years.

However, it doesn't help that, from what I remember of past CWT discussions about Forrest, there's no really good biography of him. His biographers over the years are a few haters and a lot of fawning apologists. And unlike other figures that have a dubious biographic historiography but who have been well covered by battle & campaign narratives, Forrest's service was mostly on the fringes of major campaigns and so has not had the same level of quality modern scrutiny that many other controversial military figures of the war have received.

 

[10th Michigan Infantry]

(Another great example, I think, of Jeff Davis' incredibly poor judgment in military affairs).

To be honest, I think both presidents were bad on military affairs, but I think Davis had the advantage of having been a Colonel during the Mexican War with combat experience, whereas Lincoln had none.

 

[gjpratt]

@Aelfwin when I was in your position of wanting to learn more about the Union side of the Western Theater, I started with Lamers' biography of Rosecrans, The Edge of Glory. It is a very balanced and objective biography. There is a newer biography by David G. Moore, a regular poster here, that I have on my reading backburnrer. I profited from Brian Steel Wills' biography of George Thomas. I also recommend Annals of the Army of the Cumberland, even though it is a bit of a ponderous read. This work was highly recommended to us by Jim Ogden as he was leading a tour of the Tullahoma Campaign.

To return to Forrest, his relative inactivity during the Tullahoma Campaign was because he was still recuperating from his pistol wound by Willis Gould just before Rosecrans opened the Campaign.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

@Aelfwin when I was in your position of wanting to learn more about the Union side of the Western Theater, I started with Lamers' biography of Rosecrans, The Edge of Glory. It is a very balanced and objective biography. There is a newer biography by David G. Moore, a regular poster here, that I have on my reading backburnrer. I profited from Brian Steel Wills' biography of George Thomas. I also recommend Annals of the Army of the Cumberland, even though it is a bit of a ponderous read. This work was highly recommended to us by Jim Ogden as he was leading a tour of the Tullahoma Campaign.

To return to Forrest, his relative inactivity during the Tullahoma Campaign was because he was still recuperating from his pistol wound by Willis Gould just before Rosecrans opened the Campaign.

Sergeant Pratt - thank you very much! Adding these to the list. Rosecrans is definitely an interesting "character" (and I mean that in the most complimentary sense) in an era rich with them.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

To be honest, I think both presidents were bad on military affairs, but I think Davis had the advantage of having been a Colonel during the Mexican War with combat experience, whereas Lincoln had none.

Didn't Lincoln do something in the Black Hawk War? At any rate, one criticism leveled against Davis is his notion of attempting to defend every point of the Confederate border -- a violation of the military principle of force concentration. He may have been better than Lincoln (and I can't speak to Lincoln's military ability), but I don't think Davis was the Grand Strategist he believed himself to be.

 

[10th Michigan Infantry]

Didn't Lincoln do something in the Black Hawk War? At any rate, one criticism leveled against Davis is his notion of attempting to defend every point of the Confederate border -- a violation of the military principle of force concentration. He may have been better than Lincoln (and I can't speak to Lincoln's military ability), but I don't think Davis was the Grand Strategist he believed himself to be.

Lincoln was a Captain in the Volunteers if I remember correctly, but he didn't see combat, and the war ended soon after his commission if I remember right.

 

[jackt62]

Didn't Lincoln do something in the Black Hawk War? At any rate, one criticism leveled against Davis is his notion of attempting to defend every point of the Confederate border -- a violation of the military principle of force concentration. He may have been better than Lincoln (and I can't speak to Lincoln's military ability), but I don't think Davis was the Grand Strategist he believed himself to be.

Lincoln served briefly in the Illinois militia during the Black Hawk War and famously noted that the only fighting he did was against the mosquitoes in camp. He was no military expert and famously sought out books on military strategy after gaining the White House. That education did not make him an authority in military matters and many of his actions showed that to be true (i.e., obsessive insistence on maintaining force to defend Washington City and his unrealistic understanding of what it actually took to pursue and destroy an enemy army). In contrast, Davis, because of his West Point education, military service in Mexico, and stint as Secretary of War, fancied himself a master commander (he really wanted to be in command of troops rather than Confederate president.) But Davis also bungled in setting grand strategic policy. He waffled between a cordon defense of all the Confederacy's borders and insufficient emphasis on securing the important western waterways, with granting Lee broad power to carrying out aggressive attacks that diminished southern manpower. But to get back to this thread, Davis remarked towards the end of the war that he should have used Bedford Forrest in a more effective manner. Davis may have come to the realization too late that cutting western Union logistics and control of rail and water links to the southland might have been a better use of southern resources.

 

[leftyhunter]

Agree with almost all of this. I always felt that Forrest was one of the most overhyped personalities of the war. He mostly fought in small actions that really hade very little effect on the course of the war. He was more of a nuisance than anything else.

Not sure about that. Besides the Sherman quote by @19thGeorgia Forrest's tactics were studied at West Point well into the 20th Century. Forrest was an excellent commander who was also visited by US Army officers post war. Of course has Lt General Pershing said " Generals win battles logistics wins wars". Also by 1864 the Union cavalry simply outmatched the Confederate cavalry and or mounted infantry in numbers, logistics and better fire arms. Forrest did we could with what he had that's all a commander can do.
Lefyhunter

Myth he wasn't! Sold slaves and had different rules then others slavers for purchasing and selling.
Gave blacks their freedom if they fought with him which they did.
Used his own money to organize his army.

General Sherman was scared of him and the way he fought.
He was a true Patriot for a cause.

No evidence that any person of color fought with Forrest only that they served in support roles. Few if any Afro Americans actually fought the Confederate Army.

Oh, I agree with all that. Tactically he was brilliant. But that does not change that he had very little affect on the course of the war. People love to quote Sherman on him, but Sherman merely viewed him as a nuisance. You cant quote one adverse action Sherman was forced into because of Forrest.

Very true. Ultimately the war was lost early on when Davis scored Lincoln's goal of uniting the majority of Americans ( yes including many in the South) by bombarding Ft. Sumter and the only two nations in 1861 with significant blue water navies France and Great Britan decided not to militarily intervene on behalf of the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

Lincoln served briefly in the Illinois militia during the Black Hawk War and famously noted that the only fighting he did was against the mosquitoes in camp. He was no military expert and famously sought out books on military strategy after gaining the White House. That education did not make him an authority in military matters and many of his actions showed that to be true (i.e., obsessive insistence on maintaining force to defend Washington City and his unrealistic understanding of what it actually took to pursue and destroy an enemy army). In contrast, Davis, because of his West Point education, military service in Mexico, and stint as Secretary of War, fancied himself a master commander (he really wanted to be in command of troops rather than Confederate president.) But Davis also bungled in setting grand strategic policy. He waffled between a cordon defense of all the Confederacy's borders and insufficient emphasis on securing the important western waterways, with granting Lee broad power to carrying out aggressive attacks that diminished southern manpower. But to get back to this thread, Davis remarked towards the end of the war that he should have used Bedford Forrest in a more effective manner. Davis may have come to the realization too late that cutting western Union logistics and control of rail and water links to the southland might have been a better use of southern resources.

Jack, that's a most illuminating summary. Thank you very much, and I now remember the remark Davis made about Forrest. I also have a sort of vague memory that Bragg, when advisor, may have diminished Forrest to Davis. Related to which, I think the story about Forrest threatening Bragg (after Chickamauga?) may have been just that, something of a postwar tall tale. Or, I should say, lost cause mythology.

 

[UCVRelics]

Citation Needed.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

View attachment 479729

Oh dear! It seems that General Lee was an early distributor of lost cause mythology.

 

[JerryD]

View attachment 479729

So its what lawyers call double hearsay. A guy said that he heard a guy say that Lee said....

Color me unconvinced. I would love to know what Lee thought Forrest accomplished. If Lee did say this, he was woefully ignorant of the facts.

 

[BillO]

No reason to not read something. If folks have to suffer through Abbeville screeds or, heaven forbid, small furry creature news, it doesn't mean there's nothing to learn. It also doesn't mean we have to agree with it but we don't know unless we read it.

To be fair I did read the title and then I read the writers bio. That was enough for me.
If it makes you feel better if I ever come across an article whose title is Gwilym T is a poopy head I probably won't read that either.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Oh dear! It seems that General Lee was an early distributor of lost cause mythology.

 

[jackt62]

Bragg, when advisor, may have diminished Forrest to Davis. Related to which, I think the story about Forrest threatening Bragg (after Chickamauga?) may have been just that, something of a postwar tall tale.

There was no love lost between Bragg and Forrest, that's for sure.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

There was no love lost between Bragg and Forrest, that's for sure.

True - and no love lost between Bragg and anyone, except maybe Davis. I honestly feel a certain amount of sadness and pity for him.

 

[Enoch L. Cade]

By the way, sir - another participant in this thread warned me about highjacking this thread with non-Forrest content. (And I think may have reported a comment I made to the mods.) I plead guilty and hope that you will accept my apologies. I'm relatively new here, and still learning the ropes.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Obviously, Lee & Forrest did not move within the same social circles.
( A Virginia aristocrat and a poor Tennessee boy)

I'm guessing Lee may have heard Forrest's name mentioned in staff meetings, (successful raids in the West & such).

But I doubt R E Lee really knew anything about NBF until after the war.

 

[Rebforever]

Na.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I plead guilty and hope that you will accept my apologies. I'm relatively new here, and still learning the ropes.

Apologies for what ?

I haven't seen anything to report.

Anything about Nathan Bedford Forrest will be always controversial.
Folks either love him or hate him ... and no one's opinion will be changed.