Virginia Lock Plate

[RSMorris]

I mostly collect anything with Needham Conversions, have 12 so far, but have also branched
out on lock plates. Was cruising ebay this morning and this lock plate popped up, as a new listing so I grabbed it.

Just some quick research shows it as a second-model. From what I have read there were
58,428 Virginia Manufactory muskets made between the years 1802 and 1821. This lock is dated
1816 and there were 4104 made that year.

I ordered a book on these by Giles Cromwell called The Virgina Manufactory of Arms.

The ebay image is shown

 

[Obi1gr]

most likely gonna be an SC Robinson bolster conversion based on the cutout from where the pan used to be

 

[RSMorris]

most likely gonna be an SC Robinson bolster conversion based on the cutout from where the pan used to be

Thanks, will look that up. Yep, I agree. The square gives it away.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

One benefit to collecting lockplates is that they are small and flat and have no parts to break or get lost, and you can easily store them or display them!!

 

[RSMorris]

One benefit to collecting lockplates is that they are small and flat and have no parts to break or get lost, and you can easily store them or display them!!

Was a pleasure meeting you at the show.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Same here.
I don't know if you took photos at the Franklin Show of my Bridesburg 1862 rifle-musket with the IN mark on the stock of the Fenians, and also showed it was put together from varying parts - the upper band was flat from the 1861 model, the lower two rounded from the 1863 model. As I remember, these arms were seized by the authorities, stored badly, but then released and the Fenians got them and converted some of them to the Needham system. Because of the bad storage, some rifle muskets were rusted, and they were taken apart, cleaned, and put back together from the pile parts, so some guns will have parts still in good shape and other parts on the same arm pitted from the cleaned off rust.

 

[RSMorris]

Same here.
I don't know if you took photos of the Bridesburg 1862 rifle-musket with the IN mark on the stock of the Fenians, and also showed it was put together from varying parts - the upper band was flat from the 1861 model, the lower two rounded from the 1863 model. As I remember, these arms were seized by the authorities, stored badly, but then released and the Fenians got them and converted some of them to the Needham system. Because of the bad storage, some rifle muskets were rusted, and they were taken apart, cleaned, and put back together from the pile parts, so some guns will have parts still in good shape and other parts on the same arm pitted from the cleaned off rust.

You got it exactly right.

 

[RSMorris]

This lock plate came in last night. I believe the alteration was actually done by Francis Persignon from Richmond. On the S.C. Robinson alteration, the bottom of the cut-out is rounded to accept part of the brass from the flintlock pan. The bottom of the cut-out on mine is straight. Have looked at dozens of these locks and Persignon so far is the closest. It does an have 11 stampled on the bolster plate and a W or upside M(here we go again) on the flat inside part of the lock. Still waiting on Cromwells book to arrive tomorrow. Tells all about these Virginia Muskets and thier alterations..

Here is horse soldier ad with one of these locks with the conversion by Persignon

CONFEDERATE ALTERATION OF A VIRGINIA MANUFACTORY MUSKET BY PERSIGNON: EX-CROMWELL, EX-BEN MICHEL, PUBLISHED ASAC AND BY MURPHY AND MADAUS, WITH A LIKELY VA MANUFACTORY BAYONET — Horse Soldier

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

It's possible its a Persignion, or maybe even an Adams. But brass pans weren't used on Va Muskets until 1817.

 

[RSMorris]

It's possible its a Persignion, or maybe even an Adams. But brass pans weren't used on Va Muskets until 1817.

Thank you... I haven't found any images of an Adams alteration yet. I am hoping the book about these will be here tomorrow. Maybe it will shed some light.

 

[RSMorris]

This is a comparison. Mine is on the top. Horse Soldier sold the one in the middle id'd by them as Persignion. The one at the bottom is id'd as an Adams...

 

[RSMorris]

In the Moller book, it speaks of a W stamp as an inspectors stamp which mine has. I also have the books by Peter Schmidt on flintlocks and they don't really touch on the stampings. In several articles I have read, they tell of some having roman numerals stamped in the reverse. Mine does not have any roman numerals but it does have an 11 stamped in the bolster block. I realize it could be an assembly number but wouldn't those be unique to each arm? So being mine is an 1816, I doubt it is the 11th of anything to do with the Virginia armory. Could it be a stamp of the entity who did the alteration to percussion? I have the book by Giles Cromwell but it really does not get into the stamping with much detail. It also does not really get into the alterations to percussion.

So, my two questions at the moment would be:

Why do some have roman numberals stamped on the inside and others do not?

What does the number mean on the bloster block?

The top pic is mine showing the 11 and the W and the bottom pic is off the interent showing roman numberals.

 

[rob63]

ASAC Bulletin #52 has an article by Cromwell specifically on alterations.

1980-1989 Articles – American Society of Arms Collectors

americansocietyofarmscollectors.org

 

[RSMorris]

ASAC Bulletin #52 has an article by Cromwell specifically on alterations.

1980-1989 Articles – American Society of Arms Collectors

americansocietyofarmscollectors.org

Thank you. Two of the ASAC articles i had and read and now have the third one plus the Giles Cromwell book. Some of this stuff makes you want to pull your hair out. Referring to the bolster block/mortise, the articles talk of two-faceted and three faceted bolster. So, would I be coreect in saying the upper pic would be a two-faceted biolster and the lower pic would be a three-faceted bolster?

 

[rob63]

Thank you. I have all three articles now and Giles Cromwell book. Some of this stuff makes you want to pull your hair out. Referring to the bolster block/mortise, the articles talk of two-faceted and three faceted bolster. Is the bolster plate/block in two, or three seperate pieces or is it referring to the way it is cut? After reading these, it appears a lot of dealers advertising V.M. muskets are just guessing as to who did the alteration.

I haven't read Cromwell's book, but having read Murphy & Madaus, Davies, Moller, Knott, and many others. I think there is WAY more guesswork involved in attributing Confederate arms than what most people want to acknowledge, and I'm referring to the authors, the dealers are another story altogether.

I need to take better photos, but here is the lock of my Virginia Manufactory musket:

 

[RSMorris]

Here is what I am reading from Cromwell:

Union Arms alteration: consist of curved bottom bolster / Markings of single numbers usually but not always on the mortise preceded by a U.

S.C. Robinson: 2-faceted bolster with flat bottom . Later has a sliver of brass / Roman numerals

Perpgnon: 3 faceted bolster uses roman numerals on inside of lock pLate

Adams: 3 facted bolster. infrequent use of roman numerals on inside of lock plate.

 

[RSMorris]

Looks like yours, from I am reading may have been done by John Barrett of the A.B. Barrett company. Also possible it could have been done by Leman, but those are much more rare.