USS Plymouth

[USS ALASKA]

Didn't want to clog up the other thread with off-topic posts...

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/css-virginia-help-needed.104325/page-6

BTW the full rigged ship above Virginia's quarterdeck is USS Plymouth, taken virtually intact. The CSN were preparing to take her to Richmond, but I have never been able to discover what for.

In the painting she appears to be in pretty good shape for being 'partially burned' by retreating Union forces...how bad was the damage?

"... in April 1861 was at the Gosport (Norfolk) Navy Yard where she was scuttled and partially burned at the evacuation of the yard."

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/confederate_ships/plymouth.html

How much work did the Confederates do to her in the 10 1/2 months they had her off the bottom? And this effort would have competed with the CSS Virginia conversion process.

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

 

[Talos]

BTW the full rigged ship above Virginia's quarterdeck is USS Plymouth, taken virtually intact. The CSN were preparing to take her to Richmond, but I have never been able to discover what for.

I do remember discussion about plans for converting Plymouth to an ironclad (including a half-finished drawing inspired by your work that I just remembered I never sat back down to continue working on, whoops...). As the ship was still so intact after the Union attempt to scuttle her, it stands to reason the Confederates didn't want a useful hull falling back into Union hands when they retook Gosport in 1862, evacuating it to Richmond instead, probably to continue the ironclad conversion closer to Tredegar. As she was re-scuttled on the actual day the Union came back from what I've seen, she probably either wasn't ready to go or couldn't get over a bar or something, similar to Virginia's fate.

 

[Carronade]

It doesn't seem to me that Plymouth had much potential for them, relatively deep draft, designed for the open ocean, and of course they would have to procure machinery for her. There might not have been much savings over building the kind of ironclad they really wanted from the keel up.

Having captured a relatively intact ship, they may just have felt that they ought to do something with her, even if they weren't sure what.

 

[rebelatsea]

It doesn't seem to me that Plymouth had much potential for them, relatively deep draft, designed for the open ocean, and of course they would have to procure machinery for her. There might not have been much savings over building the kind of ironclad they really wanted from the keel up.

Having captured a relatively intact ship, they may just have felt that they ought to do something with her, even if they weren't sure what.

We will probably never know, but I have idly wondered if Porter wanted to try this plan, or a variant thereof, with her.

 

[rebelatsea]

I do remember discussion about plans for converting Plymouth to an ironclad (including a half-finished drawing inspired by your work that I just remembered I never sat back down to continue working on, whoops...). As the ship was still so intact after the Union attempt to scuttle her, it stands to reason the Confederates didn't want a useful hull falling back into Union hands when they retook Gosport in 1862, evacuating it to Richmond instead, probably to continue the ironclad conversion closer to Tredegar. As she was re-scuttled on the actual day the Union came back from what I've seen, she probably either wasn't ready to go or couldn't get over a bar or something, similar to Virginia's fate.

according to surviving records, she was so little damaged that Josiah Tattnall ordered her to be prepared to take her up river. what work was actually done I don't know.

 

[Talos]

We will probably never know, but I have idly wondered if Porter wanted to try this plan, or a variant thereof, with her.
View attachment 180222

I really need to go back and finish the drawing I was doing. I was debating either doing that one, a modified (shorter, beamier) version of the 150-footer plan, or both. Do we know what kind of rig is on there? I imagine it's probably something light.

 

[rebelatsea]

I really need to go back and finish the drawing I was doing. I was debating either doing that one, a modified (shorter, beamier) version of the 150-footer plan, or both. Do we know what kind of rig is on there? I imagine it's probably something light.

On a 150ft pp type IC, it wouldn't be more than signalling poles at each end of the casemate, maybe a heavier mast with boat boom aft if carrying a chock mounted boat on the quarterdeck.

 

[rebelatsea]

On a 150ft pp type IC, it wouldn't be more than signalling poles at each end of the casemate, maybe a heavier mast with boat boom aft if carrying a chock mounted boat on the quarterdeck.

Apologies, I meant to say that I have no idea what JLP intended for the seagoing proposal, it had three masts so perhaps square rig on the foremast and gaff rig on the others, as in La Gloire (which he had the drawings of).

 

[Talos]

Apologies, I meant to say that I have no idea what JLP intended for the seagoing proposal, it had three masts so perhaps square rig on the foremast and gaff rig on the others, as in La Gloire (which he had the drawings of).

There are only two masts in the drawing you posted. It'll be easy to give it a light rig like Gloire, Dunderberg, or even a 90-day gun boat. They are all fairly typical wartime steamer rigs for either side.

 

[rebelatsea]

Apologies, I meant to say that I have no idea what JLP intended for the seagoing proposal, it had three masts so perhaps square rig on the foremast and gaff rig on the others, as in La Gloire (which he had the drawings of).

Ooops, must put my glasses on! The middle sticky up thingy is the funnel of course.
This plan is another puzzle, it's very French in many ways. He did another one of a fully rigged combined blockade runner/warship which is even more French in appearance. That is, assuming John L actually executed them as opposed to putting his signature on them. I do wonder how many plans were actually his.

 

[Talos]

Ooops, must put my glasses on! The middle sticky up thingy is the funnel of course.
This plan is another puzzle, it's very French in many ways. He did another one of a fully rigged combined blockade runner/warship which is even more French in appearance. That is, assuming John L actually executed them as opposed to putting his signature on them. I do wonder how many plans were actually his.

I've been looking at the plan this morning trying to plan how I want to adapt the design to Plymouth. Such a weird design. I saw you talking about the guns on the quarters firing forward in an old post from a few years ago (I was researching the design) but it's hard to see how they can manage that with the bulwarks and deck gun in the way. I'll probably keep Plymouth's hull length in initially to show an easier, cheaper modification, but I can do a stretched one later (since the steam engines take up the hold). Also need to figure out what guns to put in it. I'm tempted to use one of the bigger Brookes that were posted in another thread the other day for the larger deck guns.

 

[Talos]

Here's an early WIP of my first take on the side view of that ironclad. Still haven't reconstructed the stern yet (it'll get a new rudder and prop). I shortened the ironclad upper hull a bit to fit the shorter sloop's hull, plus extended the stern and bow of the Plymouth to fit. Gunports are from an old simple drawing of the Texas I did, while the masts are from my Unadilla drawing. If it seems too tall, I can drop it down another deck level that gets it closer to the proportions of the above drawing, but does mean the berthing deck is now the weather deck and casemate gundeck, and there is only the orlop and hold below.

What do you think so far? There's still general cleanup and detailing to do once the proportions are finalized and I'll knock out the front and top views quickly.

 

[rebelatsea]

Here's an early WIP of my first take on the side view of that ironclad. Still haven't reconstructed the stern yet (it'll get a new rudder and prop). I shortened the ironclad upper hull a bit to fit the shorter sloop's hull, plus extended the stern and bow of the Plymouth to fit. Gunports are from an old simple drawing of the Texas I did, while the masts are from my Unadilla drawing. If it seems too tall, I can drop it down another deck level that gets it closer to the proportions of the above drawing, but does mean the berthing deck is now the weather deck and casemate gundeck, and there is only the orlop and hold below.

What do you think so far? There's still general cleanup and detailing to do once the proportions are finalized and I'll knock out the front and top views quickly.View attachment 180435

That is a great rendition, and much along the lines of what I imagine she might have looked like. I would shorten the masts and booms slightly though. I can see Andy Hall casting a beady eye on this for one of his 3d reconstructions !

 

[rebelatsea]

This is along the lines of what I though her rig might be, ignore the mizzen mast

 

[rebelatsea]

Ooops.

 

[Talos]

That is a great rendition, and much along the lines of what I imagine she might have looked like. I would shorten the masts and booms slightly though. I can see Andy Hall casting a beady eye on this for one of his 3d reconstructions !

Thanks! I'll keep at it with this one then. I'll shorten the masts, I just threw them in unmodified (after I scaled them) from Unadilla. It is supposed to be a topsail schooner just like the one you linked (minus the mizzen), I just have it stripped dow to bare poles currently.

 

[Talos]

Updated WIP! Still needs another detailing pass before it's finished, but I got the basic top and front views in now. It was tricky adapting the top view to the sailing ship hull form.

 

[rebelatsea]

Updated WIP! Still needs another detailing pass before it's finished, but I got the basic top and front views in now. It was tricky adapting the top view to the sailing ship hull form.

View attachment 180599

You have done a really great job on that. John L Porter would have signed that off for sure.

 

[Talos]

You have done a really great job on that. John L Porter would have signed that off for sure.

Thanks, that means a lot! He probably would have been amused with my industrial espionage as I didn't feel like drawing a new prop and swiped Monitor's from a simple drawing I did years ago. It was difficult, but entertaining, fitting the steamer hull to a typical sailing proportion (most notably it's widest about a third back from the bow, and tapers all the way back to the stern while the steamer was widest in the middle). I still have details I want to add, chief among them the bow and stern pivot guns. I already have 8" Brooke rifles I drew years ago that I think I'll modify and stick there (I don't have any 7" ones already done so I would have to draw those from scratch if I want to use them). For the rest of the armament in the casemate, I'm thinking 4 x 9" Dahlgrens (which is what Plymouth historically carried anyway in her 1858 experimental cruise), and probably a pair of 6.4" Brookes.

I haven't measured it yet, but it should be around 175-180 feet long and about 37 feet wide.

 

[rebelatsea]

Thanks, that means a lot! He probably would have been amused with my industrial espionage as I didn't feel like drawing a new prop and swiped Monitor's from a simple drawing I did years ago. It was difficult, but entertaining, fitting the steamer hull to a typical sailing proportion (most notably it's widest about a third back from the bow, and tapers all the way back to the stern while the steamer was widest in the middle). I still have details I want to add, chief among them the bow and stern pivot guns. I already have 8" Brooke rifles I drew years ago that I think I'll modify and stick there (I don't have any 7" ones already done so I would have to draw those from scratch if I want to use them). For the rest of the armament in the casemate, I'm thinking 4 x 9" Dahlgrens (which is what Plymouth historically carried anyway in her 1858 experimental cruise), and probably a pair of 6.4" Brookes.

I haven't measured it yet, but it should be around 175-180 feet long and about 37 feet wide.

Porter's original was for a ship 180ft PP, another reason for my thinking that just maybe he wanted to try the scheme on the Plymouth. I think you are spot on with the guns.