Grant US Grant ethics?

[wausaubob]

Do you have a quote where Grant came to the conclusion Grant thought that the CW was punishment for the Mexican War?

its probably in his memoirs. In his view, there was a direct link.

 

[Jantzen64]

Do you have a quote where Grant came to the conclusion Grant thought that the CW was punishment for the Mexican War?

"The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican War. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times."

Memoirs, Vol. 1, p.56. https://books.google.com/books?id=4...ry and expensive war of modern times.&f=false

 

[uaskme]

"The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican War. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times."

Memoirs, Vol. 1, p.56. https://books.google.com/books?id=4...ry and expensive war of modern times.&f=false

Said it far after the event. Much of what he says in his memoirs has been discredited.

 

[damYankee]

Not aware Lincoln volunteered or served in the Mexican War.

I agree its not unusual for those opposed to a war to not serve in it. Grant did against what he says he thought was morally right, that is more unusual. That is an ethical question. Thinking something is wrong......but doing it anyway.

If the above provided piece is accurate, which not sure it is or if its someone paraphrasing his other remark. He himself would have noted his lack of moral courage. Then shouldn't we?

I don't disparage him for it, it simply shows he's not a comic book figure. Would say the majority in many things find it easier to just go along, then buck the system on personal stands. Regardless of era.

Who stated he volunteered for the Mexican War?
I stated that he did not support it.

I never said anything indicating that Lincoln or anyone else failed to volunteer or sought exemption from the Mexican War, nor did I call into question anyone's courage,
And, I am wondering now which character has become a comic book figure,
Are we in Kansas yet?

 

[A. Roy]

I do not think there was ever a more wicked war than that waged by the United States on Mexico. I thought so at the time, when I was a youngster, only I had not moral courage enough to resign. I had taken an oath to serve eight years, unless sooner discharged, and I considered my supreme duty was to my flag.

For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation.

What do we think about the dilemma being posed here, between a soldier's conscience and his duty? (Maybe particularly in the 19th century.) How many soldiers, whether officer or not, would have had the "moral courage" to opt out? How much of an option could they truly have had? I'm thinking, too, about the Civil War that began 15 years later, but on a much greater scale.
ARB

 

[CavRTO]

However being a willing participant in what he felt was "the most unjust war ever" certainly raises ethical questions to his morality. Unlike enlisted men, officers certainly had the option to resign. "Most unjust" certainly would seem a personal moral view, that he choose to ignore.

What is ironic about his presidency, some think he was rather hawkish for a second war of a war of stronger against a weaker nation with Mexico.

Grant had an active duty responsibility to serve as part of his contract to get a free education at West Point. He didn't have a say except, "yes sir, yes sir, two bags full".

 

[archieclement]

What do we think about the dilemma being posed here, between a soldier's conscience and his duty? (Maybe particularly in the 19th century.) How many soldiers, whether officer or not, would have had the "moral courage" to opt out? How much of an option could they truly have had? I'm thinking, too, about the Civil War that began 15 years later, but on a much greater scale.
ARB

The ACW, as well as Grant's peacetime career certainly demonstrate officers of the era could, and did resign, Grant ultimately does resign not over "most unjust war ever" but his excessive drinking.

 

[Belfoured]

The ACW, as well as Grant's peacetime career certainly demonstrate officers of the era could, and did resign, Grant ultimately does resign not over "most unjust war ever" but his excessive drinking.

One might see a difference between resigning while the US is at war and resigning during peace time.

 

[archieclement]

Assuming that the quote from Young is accurate, it's refreshing to see a leader admit to being wrong or less than perfect as they struggle with the issues of the day. And to learning and growing based on those experiences. Perhaps what made Grant such a determined general in the ACW was his conviction that the ACW was God's "punishment" for the Mexican War. Without the moral dilemma he experienced as a result of the Mexican War, he may not have risen to the occasion in ACW.

Indeed historical figures mistakes or ethical failures, to me just demonstrate they were like everyone else in not being infalliable, so were not "marble men".

To me great men should be commerated not because they were comic book stereotypes, but because they were great despite imperfections everyone has.

 

[archieclement]

One might see a difference between resigning while the US is at war and resigning during peace time.

Would think that would carry more weight if one didn't consider the war in question, the most injust ever.

 

[Jantzen64]

Said it far after the event.

Well if that's the standard guiding this discussion, then the same applies to the interview with Young on which the OP was based (coupled with the additional possibility of Grant being mis-heard or misquoted). Are there any contemporaneous letters of Grant's recording his views of the Mexican War at the time?

 

[archieclement]

Do think if he said in the interview "he didn't have the moral courage to resign" it gives him points in being rather frank and honest afterwards.

 

[Belfoured]

Would think that would carry more weight if one didn't consider the war in question, the most injust ever.

I'm sure you would - especially because it involves Grant. I'm sure others would recognize the difference

 

[archieclement]

I'm sure you would - especially because it involves Grant. I'm sure others would recognize the difference

???? It would make no difference who thought a war the most unjust ever, then willingly participated. The ethics would remain the same. Certainly if to the extent they go on to say they didn't have moral courage to resign.

I have never disliked Grant. Stated such in another thread recently.

 

[Belfoured]

Said it far after the event. Much of what he says in his memoirs has been discredited.

Things are always a little more complicated than we might like. Just for one example, he raised concerns about what was going on there at the time, as he stated in a July 25, 1846 letter to Julia:

Some of the volunteers and about all the Texans seem to think it perfectly right to impose upon the people of a conquered
City to any extent, and even to murder them where the act can be covered by the dark. And how much they seem to enjoy acts
of violence too!

 

[GwilymT]

Things are always a little more complicated than we might like. Just for one example, he raised concerns about what was going on there at the time, as he stated in a July 25, 1846 letter to Julia:

Some of the volunteers and about all the Texans seem to think it perfectly right to impose upon the people of a conquered
City to any extent, and even to murder them where the act can be covered by the dark. And how much they seem to enjoy acts
of violence too!

They tried to impose their absolute rule in 1861 as well. They lost.

 

[Belfoured]

???? It would make no difference who thought a war the most unjust ever, then willingly participated. The ethics would remain the same. Certainly if to the extent they go on to say they didn't have moral courage to resign.

I have never disliked Grant. Stated such in another thread recently.

Fair enough. I think the issue is "willingly". When a war is underway, that oath makes things a lot more complicated.

 

[briantllb]

Good question... do you quit a job you need because you may disagree with a superior? Do you only resign when the outcome of the question may affect you economically like Lee did or do you honor your oath like Lee didn't? Not sure. So Grant wrote that he was against the Mexican War on moral grounds but at the time he was a young officer caught up in service to his country.

And he served.

Grant was called, and he went.

He was called to service in Mexico, and despite misgivings he went to fulfill his duty as a US Citizen and a soldier. A young man doing his duty.

He was called again when rebels tried to break the blessed country apart. He served and won that particular war. A man doing his duty.

He was called again to service as President of the United States and did more for Civil Rights for people who aren't white than anyone previously. A diplomat and figurehead doing his duty.

Thank you for your service Mr. Grant.

General Lee considered Virginia to be his country. Not the United States, which was and technically still is a federation of Independent states. Therefore his loyalty to Virginia superseded his oath to the United States and its Constitution which he believed marginalised and was attempting to and had subjugated his country to the Federation by making laws which, without consultation subverted and claimed precedence over the laws of Virginia. So when Virginia seceded he had no other choice but to resign his commission with the Union Army and join the army of his country or be considered a traitor. It must be remembered that Virginia while a member of the Confederate States of America and housed the Capitol of the Confederacy was an independent Country within the Confederacy as were all the other states that constituted the Confederacy.
Interestingly it was for that exact reason one of his ancestors Richard Henry Lee proposed independence from Great Britain and Richard Henry Lee and Francis Lightfoot Lee were both signatories to the final document.

 

[uaskme]

Well if that's the standard guiding this discussion, then the same applies to the interview with Young on which the OP was based (coupled with the additional possibility of Grant being mis-heard or misquoted). Are there any contemporaneous letters of Grant's recording his views of the Mexican War at the time?

Safe to dismiss most of it as far as I'm concerned.

Can you tell me more about Grant's Virtue Signaling? Was Grant referring that the Confederacy was being punished by the Federal Government who propagated the war against Mexico. Or did Grant think the whole country was being punished? Was God doing the punishing?

 

[1SGDan]

Wait a minute someone who calls himself Archie Clement questions military ethics?

Archie Clement was born in Moniteau County, Missouri, on January 1, 1846. He joined the Confederate guerrillas under Captain William "Bloody Bill" Anderson in 1861 and, by the time he was 17, had already become a lieutenant. A very small man, weighing just about 130 pounds and standing just over five feet tall, he made up with it with his fearlessness and as an expert pistol shot. He quickly took a prominent role in Anderson's military operations, including the raid on Lawrence, Kansas, where some 150 men were killed and the town was burned. He also participated in the Centralia, Missouri massacre, where 23 Union soldiers were robbed and shot.