Union grenadiers?

[chubachus]

I have thought these guys were with the 7th NYSM because of the striped pants, NARA number, and image size but have been intrigued by the grenadier insignia they both have on their kepis and left man's chest as opposed to the "7" that many soldiers of the 7th NYSM have in other photographs. Any idea who they are? Grenadiers of the 7th NYSM?

 

[tryagain]

I'd say..the 7th NYSM
For comparrison
http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/7thInfNYSM/7thInfNYSMPersonFairchild.htm
http://www.americancivilwarphotos.c...ivil-war-regiments/7th-new-york-state-militia

 

[7thWisconsin]

There were never any American grenadiers, neither in the sense of bomb throwers or big, elite infantry collected in one company. In the U.S. army, the flaming bomb is the insignia of the ordinance branch. They look like Federal militia, but I can't definitely say they're 7th NYSM.

 

[major bill]

I have a couple of issues with this image. The men appear to have either crossed rifles or crossed cannons on the cross belt. the also appear to have crossed rifles or crossed cannons on their caps. Crossed riffles were not used before 1873. The caps may also be based on the 1873 model forage cap. I am concerned this might be a post Civil War photo.

 

[E_just_E]

There is no way that this is a CW era photo
Cannot start counting the wrongs

(anyone noticed the extra pair of brand new boots on the top of the first guys' pack, btw? Or where is the second guys' weapon? Might be that thing that is sticking on top of the first guys' musket and about to poke him in the eye) Don't know what those guys are doing, but they are not going to war. Might be some early re-enactors, who knows...

 

[major bill]

There were some U.S. militia regiments that had grenadier companies. A few U.S. militia grenadier companies wore the grenadier leather apron.

 

[chubachus]

There is no way that this is a CW era photo
Cannot start counting the wrongs

(anyone noticed the extra pair of brand new boots on the top of the first guys' pack, btw? Or where is the second guys' weapon? Might be that thing that is sticking on top of the first guys' musket and about to poke him in the eye) Don't know what those guys are doing, but they are not going to war. Might be some early re-enactors, who knows...

If they are 7th NYSM, then it is probably the beginning of the war in 1861, so I could easily see them having brand new boots. The 7th NYSM series of photographs were all possibly taken in Camp Cameron in D.C., and many of the photographs show unarmed men at ease, so I don't see the second guy being unarmed as unusual.

 

[chubachus]

I'd say..the 7th NYSM
For comparrison
http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/7thInfNYSM/7thInfNYSMPersonFairchild.htm
http://www.americancivilwarphotos.c...ivil-war-regiments/7th-new-york-state-militia

Lieutenant J.A. Baker has the same insignia on his kepi, great find.

 

[7thWisconsin]

What do you make that musket out to be? I don't think it's a studio prop because of the setting. So, it's a rifle that takes a sword bayonet. Every 7th Nysm photo I looked at today shows a Springfield, or at least a musket with a triangular bayonet. My guess is the 1855. You can just see the Maynard primer hinge. How long was the 1855 in service after the war? Also, their caps seem consistent with the other militia caps I've seen, so I'm not ready to call it post war yet.

 

[chubachus]

I have a couple of issues with this image. The men appear to have either crossed rifles or crossed cannons on the cross belt. the also appear to have crossed rifles or crossed cannons on their caps. Crossed riffles were not used before 1873. The caps may also be based on the 1873 model forage cap. I am concerned this might be a post Civil War photo.

Are you talking about federal army or New York State Militia regiments though? Militia units were so varied that I wouldn't be surprised they had adopted something before the federal army.

 

[major bill]

I would have to research this a bit. I know I have seen images of grenadier militia companies, but not sure where I seen them. The only New York grenadier units off the top of my head is the 1st Grenadier Regiment which became to 65th New York Regiment during the Civil War. The 103rd New York Infantry, raised for the Civil War, was primary a "German" regiment and Company A was the grenadier company.

 

[AUG]

They definitely look like the 7th NYSM, for example:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/851
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3b10295/
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/sergeants-morrison-and-ryder-7th-n-y-s-m.115303/

But maybe post war 7th NYSM? As for the extra pair of boots, remember if these guys are indeed the 7th NYSM than they're not doing any campaigning, but mostly sitting around as garrison troops.

 

[AUG]

There were never any American grenadiers, neither in the sense of bomb throwers or big, elite infantry collected in one company. In the U.S. army, the flaming bomb is the insignia of the ordinance branch. They look like Federal militia, but I can't definitely say they're 7th NYSM.

There is this image of the 7th NYSM with an artillery piece. Its too blurry to see if they have the same insignia in their caps, though they do appear to have an insignia on their cross belts, as in the OP image. Possibly an artillery contingent of the 7th NYSM?

 

[7thWisconsin]

Hard to tell if there's a connection. The men around the cannon have black cross belts, while those in the background have white. If they were an artillery crew, that would be consistent with the Continental practice of giving dark equipment to artillery because working on the guns is dirty work. However, I don't know if there were guns associated with the 7th, so we might be chasing a red herring.

 

[chubachus]

Here is another photograph of an artilleryman possibly of the 7th NYSM in the 7th NYSM camp:

Uniform looks different for sure from the two men.

 

[7thWisconsin]

Completely different guns from the other photo, too! Those guys must have been the darlings of the photographers: so many pretty uniforms and so many shiny toys! There are some similarities between the picture and the OPs photo: dark band on the bottom of the kept, square crossbelt plated with some kind of raised design. If we could make out a flaming bomb on any of them it would be helpful.