Two Infamous Guerrillas

[diane]

Younger is supposed to have finally purchased a headstone for Anderson's grave, many years after his burial. It could very well be one of those myths that spring up on the internet. The current military headstone looks new but I believe was placed several decades ago. Anderson is buried in the Mormon cemetery in Richmond. It is now a beautiful, well-tended little cemetery. It is a very significant place to the members of that church. However, in Anderson's time, I believe it was neglected and overgrown with fallen head stones, etc. I believe that is why he was buried there....as if to demonstrate that the townspeople didn't want him in the same soil with their more honored folk.

Those kinds of burials are interesting, and it's also interesting how the attitudes toward the occupant of the burial sort of morphs. Right now it seems Bill Anderson is getting a measure of respect, decent cemetery, headstone. I still kind of like his brief appearance in Josey Wales, though. Comes up to Josey peaceably enough but he's got blood in his eye, going to do whatever to whoever for revenge. Since Josey was sitting on the graves of his family, he was in the same mood. It's a real snapshot of how extremely violent, possibly crazy, men like Anderson gained followers.

 

[mofederal]

Donald Hale was the one who placed a monument on Anderson's grave. It was done in the mid 1960's. A long time ago I remember seeing a sign that pointed the way to his grave and the two Book of Mormon witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. I am pretty sure in 1864 that cemetery was chosen for a reason. I suspect Anderson is the only non-Mormon buried in the cemetery. In the county history there are several pages dealing with the Mormon troubles in that part of the state. The Missouri Mormon War was how it was referred to at the time. It actions happened in the counties surrounding Ray.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Younger is supposed to have finally purchased a headstone for Anderson's grave, many years after his burial. It could very well be one of those myths that spring up on the internet. The current military headstone looks new but I believe was placed several decades ago. Anderson is buried in the Mormon cemetery in Richmond. It is now a beautiful, well-tended little cemetery. It is a very significant place to the members of that church. However, in Anderson's time, I believe it was neglected and overgrown with fallen head stones, etc. I believe that is why he was buried there....as if to demonstrate that the townspeople didn't want him in the same soil with their more honored folk.

Is it Mormon (LDS) or RLDS? Maybe it doesn't matter. I have seen their landscape crews, who come up out of KC to maintain the various sites in northwestern Missouri. It is interesting to me that they continue to do this with Church personnel, instead of just hiring a local lawn service. These sites attract a moderate number of Mormon tourists, but I believe the locals pay them no mind. Back to your point. I had no idea Anderson was buried in a Mormon cemetery, though I knew he was planted somewhere near Richmond.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Donald Hale was the one who placed a monument on Anderson's grave. I was done in the 1980's. A long time ago I remember seeing a sign that pointed the way to his grave and the two Book of Mormon witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. I am pretty sure in 1864 that cemetery was chosen for a reason. I suspect Anderson is the only non-Mormon buried in the cemetery. In the county history there are several pages dealing with the Mormon troubles in that part of the state. The Missouri Mormon War was how it was referred to at the time. It actions happened in the counties surrounding Ray.

There are still members of the Whitmer family in the area. They didn't all get run out.

 

[archieclement]

?

I am talking about Bill Anderson and Archie Clements in this thread. I am not discussing, cussing, condemning, nor defending Yankees. Where do you guys get this stuff to spin and why do you spin it on threads that never intended it?

...and what is "dry hanging?" I didn't say anything about "dry hanging." I don't even know what you mean by "dry hanging".

Archie, I don't understand what you are saying here, but...as it is a response to one of my posts, I know it is directed at me.

Actually it was a reponse to the one you responded to, that's why I said to you by his logic........if he is saying you cant defend partisans west of the river,,,,the same would be true of the union troops they were fighting, they also scalped, mutilated, and murdered in cold blood, the jayhawkers and union militia exhibited the very same behavior he is condemning the guerrillas for.......I agree its silly to have to point out what one side did, when both were doing it, but for some reason there's always some who seem to want to condemn one while turning a blind eye to the other......which does make it necessary to point out BOTH were doing it.

Dry hanging is hanging someone, but letting them down before the die of suffocation so they can keep repeating it as torture......

Sorry if think its off topic, but see no reason to let people condemn one and ignore the other, when both were happening in the same place, at the same time, between the forces fighting one another.

Camping and using car wifi, so time online is limited to look up threads

 

[Patrick H]

I had no idea Anderson was buried in a Mormon cemetery, though I knew he was planted somewhere near Richmond.

At first, I had no idea, either. At the time I started my search, information that I found said that he was buried in the "pioneer" cemetery in Richmond. I suppose that is true enough. It didn't tell me that those pioneers happened to be Mormons. He is buried in the SW corner of the grounds. When you see his grave or Archie's (in Lafayette County), it seems obvious that the people who buried them tried to locate them far away from the other burials. I didn't want to mention the Mormon "wars" in Missouri for fear of offending someone, but I believe in Anderson's day the Mormons were still hated by many in the area and that's why the townspeople chose to bury him there. You really have to see the place to appreciate how it had fallen into ruin and how it has been restored to such beauty now. Many, many grave locations were lost and the headstones had to be gathered in a central location to be displayed. Those are now placed flat in cement in a beautifully landscaped area. As you say, the Mormons themselves seem to have done all this work and they maintain the place, too.

More current information says that Anderson's grave site was identified by studying key landscape features and small details in a series of historic photos until a matching place could be located. Whether this is true or not, or whether the stone actually marks his grave, I can't say.

 

[Patrick H]

but see no reason to let people condemn one and ignore the other, when both were happening in the same place, at the same time, between the forces fighting one another.

I agree.

 

[diane]

Wow. That's remarkable. Some famous and infamous people have been in the lost and found department since they were buried in a disused or very old cemetery no one tends any more, given no marker, either had no relations or the relations weren't allowed. Anderson is in a Mormon cemetery even though he wasn't a Mormon because nobody else would have him?

Not to derail this enlightening thread but I'm wondering - why is Anderson receiving more respect today than in his own day? Distance in time? Has the meaning of who he was changed? Do people today see him in the light of other factors? I can put a why to it from what happened to the guy but sure can't excuse his excesses.

 

[Patrick H]

Wow. That's remarkable. Some famous and infamous people have been in the lost and found department since they were buried in a disused or very old cemetery no one tends any more, given no marker, either had no relations or the relations weren't allowed. Anderson is in a Mormon cemetery even though he wasn't a Mormon because nobody else would have him?

Not to derail this enlightening thread but I'm wondering - why is Anderson receiving more respect today than in his own day? Distance in time? Has the meaning of who he was changed? Do people today see him in the light of other factors? I can put a why to it from what happened to the guy but sure can't excuse his excesses.

I don't think this is a derailment at all--it's a perfectly appropriate question. It's a question I've pondered, too, but I don't have the answer. I suppose it could be a combination of all the possibilities you suggest. I don't understand why souvenir hunters feel compelled to chip pieces off of headstones, either. I guess it's a form of trophy collecting.

When I went looking for his grave, I had seen a photo so I knew he would have a military stone. Even so, I was surprised to see the rebel battle flag honoring him. It simply hadn't occurred to me that someone would bother to give him a flag. I will hasten to add that it made finding him very easy--it was the only flag marking any grave so I could walk right to it. Ditto with Little Archie.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

At first, I had no idea, either. At the time I started my search, information that I found said that he was buried in the "pioneer" cemetery in Richmond. I suppose that is true enough. It didn't tell me that those pioneers happened to be Mormons. He is buried in the SW corner of the grounds. When you see his grave or Archie's (in Lafayette County), it seems obvious that the people who buried them tried to locate them far away from the other burials. I didn't want to mention the Mormon "wars" in Missouri for fear of offending someone, but I believe in Anderson's day the Mormons were still hated by many in the area and that's why the townspeople chose to buy him there. You really have to see the place to appreciate how it had fallen into ruin and how it has been restored to such beauty now. Many, many grave locations were lost and the headstones had to be gathered in a central location to be displayed. Those are now placed flat in cement in a beautifully landscaped area. As you say, the Mormons themselves seem to have done all this work and they maintain the place, too.

More current information says that Anderson's grave site was identified by studying key landscape features and small details in a series of historic photos until a matching place could be located. Whether this is true or not, or whether the stone actually marks his grave, I can't say.

Sorry, to deviate from Anderson. There are still barely closed wounds in some communities up here, but mostly its folklore. One of my former University of Missouri acquaintances, a PhD in livestock nutrition went to work for a St. Joseph based animal health manufacturing firm. He farmed out some of his independent research funding to Universities in Utah. He told me that he often was told by his contacts there that there was a special place in hell for Missourians. It was funny to both of us, because the PhD was from Wisconsin. Maybe, they haven't forgotten in Utah.

 

[rhettbutler1865]

I have not been to Dover. But that is only one of the three graves of Capt. Quantrill's remains. I did visit one of the three graves yesterday. It is in the Confederate Cemetery at Higginsville, MO.

I am not sure specifically which of his body parts are buried in this grave. I believe they are long bones from his legs. Perhaps a bit more of him. These bones were literally in the possession of a Kansas collector until about ten years ago.

View attachment 57082

Tell Quantrill he wasn't a colonel...Good job on this subject!

 

[archieclement]

Wow. That's remarkable. Some famous and infamous people have been in the lost and found department since they were buried in a disused or very old cemetery no one tends any more, given no marker, either had no relations or the relations weren't allowed. Anderson is in a Mormon cemetery even though he wasn't a Mormon because nobody else would have him?

Not to derail this enlightening thread but I'm wondering - why is Anderson receiving more respect today than in his own day? Distance in time? Has the meaning of who he was changed? Do people today see him in the light of other factors? I can put a why to it from what happened to the guy but sure can't excuse his excesses.

Guerrillas had respect back then from sizable portion of the population, its why they were able to operate so far behind enemy lines as long as they did, if they hadn't every time they tried to camp someone would have informed on them and they'd be toast.......but instead usually the populace was warning the guerrillas of union movements, so they could operate almost at will as long as they did.

Don't forget after the war the same people celebrated and aided the James/Youngers and Quantrill reunions were celebrated events. Would think evidence wartime and postwar supports they had a sizable following back then.

Unionists obviously feared them, but since they were the minority in most rural areas, most unionists moved to towns which were garrisoned for protection, which made the rural area support even more lopsided pro guerrilla.

And the ones who basically wanted to just be left alone........evidently thought alienating the guerrillas wasn't probably the best route to being left alone........

To me that's an important distinction, fear might keep people from informing on them....But the fact they were being gave intelligence to union troop movements, isn't fear of reprisal, its active support of their cause

 

[mofederal]

The cemetery was known as the Mormon Cemetery and the Old Pioneer City Cemetery. It was started in 1846, and it was soon filled, it was abandoned. Oliver Cowdery died in 1850. A new cemetery was then established in town. Once abandoned and it fell victim to vandalism, erosion and brush. Actually Colonel Ben Brown killed at Wilson's Creek is buried there also. In 1911 the Mormon Church LDS dedicated a monument there, and in 1948 -49 they took an active interest in the upkeep of the cemetery and improving it. Austin A. King, governor of Missouri from 1848-49 and Bob Ford are buried in the western part of Richmond. The Anderson stone was placed there in 1967. I had thought it was later. So Anderson was buried in an old abandoned cemetery as a final insult, the local members of the EMM units would have known this.

 

[archieclement]

The cemetery was known as the Mormon Cemetery and the Old Pioneer City Cemetery. It was started in 1846, and it was soon filled, it was abandoned. A new cemetery was then established in town. Once abandoned and it fell victim to vandalism, erosion and brush. Actually Colonel Ben Brown killed at Wilson's Creek is buried there also. In 1911 the Mormon Church LDS dedicated a monument there, and in 1948 -49 they took an active interest in the upkeep of the cemetery and improving it. Austin A. King, governor of Missouri from 1848-49 and Bob Ford are buried in the western part of Richmond. The Anderson stone was placed there in 1967. I had thought it was later. So Anderson was buried in an old abandoned cemetery as a final insult, the local members of the EMM units would have known this.

Yup and the EMM controlled the town, hardly surprising no one suggested otherwise, people were dying or being banished for less. Suggesting an honorable burial in a respected place to the EMM would have been as wise as going into a guerrilla camp and hurrahing for abe lincoln

 

[Patrick H]

Guerrillas had respect back then from sizable portion of the population, its why they were able to operate so far behind enemy lines as long as they did, if they hadn't every time they tried to camp someone would have informed on them and they'd be toast.......but instead usually the populace was warning the guerrillas of union movements, so they could operate almost at will as long as they did.

Don't forget after the war the same people celebrated and aided the James/Youngers and Quantrill reunions were celebrated events. Would think evidence wartime and postwar supports they had a sizable following back then.

Unionists obviously feared them, but since they were the minority in most rural areas, most unionists moved to towns which were garrisoned for protection, which made the rural area support even more lopsided pro guerrilla.

And the ones who basically wanted to just be left alone........evidently thought alienating the guerrillas wasn't probably the best route to being left alone........

To me that's an important distinction, fear might keep people from informing on them....But the fact they were being gave intelligence to union troop movements, isn't fear of reprisal, its active support of their cause

This is true. It also explains why the boys could usually get food, clothing, fresh horses, and so on. Furthermore, a very large percentage of Missouri guerrillas were related as members of extended families. I didn't realize this for a long time until @Booner told me about it and showed me a book focusing on two of these family systems: The Fristoes and the Holtzclaws. John McCorckle talked repeatedly about going to the house of one uncle or another, and I began to think he had uncles everywhere he went. He was part of the Fristoe family system. They had been in Missouri for two or three generations and they were widely spread. This also explains why so many guerrillas turned up in central Missouri after Order Number 11. When they came back from Texas the following spring, many of their families had moved to central counties.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

This is true. It also explains why the boys could usually get food, clothing, fresh horses, and so on. Furthermore, a very large percentage of Missouri guerrillas were related as members of extended families. I didn't realize this for a long time until @Booner told me about it and showed me a book focusing on two of these family systems: The Fristoes and the Holtzclaws. John McCorckle talked repeatedly about going to the house of one uncle or another, and I began to think he had uncles everywhere he went. He was part of the Fristoe family system. They had been in Missouri for two or three generations and they were widely spread. This also explains why so many guerrillas turned up in central Missouri after Order Number 11. When they came back from Texas the following spring, many of their families had moved to central counties.

Hotzclaws married into a couple branches of my family, back in Virginia. They were all part of the Germanna Colony. Bet the Missouri branch is descended from them.

 

[Patrick H]

Hotzclaws married into a couple branches of my family, back in Virginia. They were all part of the Germania Colony. Bet the Missouri branch is descended from them.

Probably so. I know two Holtzclaw brothers, and one of them claims Clifton as an ancestor. I guess the other doesn't care one way or the other. It is also interesting to note that Clifton's grave stone has his name spelled "Holsclaw". That is precisely the way the name is pronounced here by the descendants and everyone else. They spell it properly, but they pronounce it phonetically.

 

[Specster]

Champ Ferguson was hanged for war crimes, yet he gets a VA marker, too.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f...GSst=45&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=5126001&df=all&

and in this upside down world it is the statue of Lee that must be removed???

The tyranny of the intentionally uninformed or should I say the tyranny of the stupid??

 

[Specster]

William Quantrill died after converting to the Catholic faith in hospital and receiving the sacrament of Extreme Unction as far as I know. This detail came up in my thread on the Black Flag. Here is what I posted (#46):

"Upon reaching Louisville, Quantrill was placed in the military prison hospital, where he was nursed by a Catholic priest. He made a full confession, converted to Catholicism and took the sacrament of extreme unction. On June 6, following an operation, William Clarke Quantrill died at the age of 27".
http://www.historynet.com/americas-...m-clarke-quantrills-last-raid-in-kentucky.htm

I also said: Perhaps he was given 'quarter' in the next life...

Truer words were never spoken (as per your quote) @Patrick H , and perhaps Quantrill met his Maker on better terms than the rest of them...one can only wonder.

If I had done what he had, Id be seeking absolution from every religion on earth

 

[Lusty Murfax]

This is a photo of a representation of the first land patent map of the Colony in Virginia.

https://i2.wp.com/germanna.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Germanna-First-Colony-Land-Patents.jpg

Note the first entry, "Holtzclaw". I believe these names were Americanized. My notes indicate the name was originally spelt, "Holtzklau". I am a direct descendant of the Richter, Fischback, Heimbach and Hitt immigrants, who arrived in the first group.