Two different men in same CMSR files — twice!

[digne]

I've never seen this before, but this week I saw it twice.

The first came about when I was helping someone else. The second was in my own research. Feel free to check my logic. Both concern Confederate soldiers from Tennessee:

TWO MEN WITH THE SAME NAME IN THE SAME REGIMENT:

John E. Spencers — https://www.fold3.com/image/7742862...6VfQL0SUaCeTFgtUimktD_ZFCUJkhlDKswKojoR2IltGY

These are all mixed up together, but they make two internally consistent different men:

1. Prvt. John E. Spencers, enlisted Nov 1862 at Estill Springs in Franklin County, Tenn. (south Tennessee near the Alabama border). He was killed in an assault at Beans Station near Knoxville, Tenn, 14 Dec 1863.
2. Capt. John E. Spencer enlisted Dec 1861 at Camp Trousdale, in Portland, Sumner County, Tennessee (North of Nashville on the Kentucky border). Given Rank of Captain in April 1862. Wounded at Stones River, active through all of 1864, and paroled at Appomattox.

I was unable to find pension records for the Captan.

TWO REGIMENTS HAD THE SAME NAME FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THE WAR:

Members of my family were in the 35th Regiment Tennessee Infantry. They lived in Warren County, Tennessee. My 3rd great grandfather Asa Hill was in the 35th. His 3rd cousin was the colonel (later general) of the regiment. I had long guessed that all Hills in the regiment were relatives and that Asa's brother Radner Hill was also in the regiment. But I have been unable to find pension records for him to prove it and the CMSR for Radner only has one card. It says he was wounded at Perryville (the card says "over" but the image of the back is missing)

Rad H. Hill of the 35th Tenn. (Company D) — https://www.fold3.com/image/76766524

However, the 35th Reg. was originally known as the 5th Tenn., for the first two years of the war, until confusion reigned because there already was a 5th Tenn from Western Tennessee (see: https://tnmap.tn.gov/civilwar/unithistoriesvol1/C_35_Inf_Rgt.pdf see especially p. 249). So my ancestor's regiment was renamed the 35th. But in early war records and battle maps they are often id-ed as the 5th Tenn. It's a royal pain in the butt to sort through ... Anyway, on a whim I checked the 5th Tenn that stayed the 5th (let's call them the "real" 5th) to see if anything was there — there was!

R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th Tenn (Company B) — https://www.fold3.com/image/76766514

There was a R.C. Hill who was a member of the real 5th (company B). All the muster roll records call him "R.C. Hill" and say he enlisted in Paris, Tenn., 20 May 1861. (in far western Tennessee). Muster roll records show R.C. Hill was marked present from May 1862 to Aug 1863. He was promoted to Sargent in the summer of 1863. He was out sick in the fall of 1863.

But in this file there are records labeled "Radner Hill" or "R. Hill." These records come from a prisoner of war roll and prisoner exchange records. They report on a man born in Warren County, Tenn., who was wounded and captured after the battle of Perryville. He lost his right arm from a gun shot wound at that battle and discharged due to disability on 26 Dec 1862 in Mississippi. They as note him as a member of Company D.

The muster roll records are all for the R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th, the prisoner of war and discharge records are all for my Radner. A man who lost an arm would not be promoted to Sargent the following summer.
Note especially the penciled in note about the 35th Inf. on the back of his discharged papers: https://www.fold3.com/image/69754570

Also notable that R.C. Hill was noted as 24 years old in May 1864 while "R. Hill" was 18 years old in Dec 1862. Not an unheard of error if they were the same man, but just another sign of irregularity (my Radner Hill was 26 in the 1870 census, so he would have been about 18 in 1862),


Anyway ... having seen some goofy confederate CMSRs I'd never seen ones quite like these. And I saw two in one week. It just underscores the importance of creating a timeline of events as you work through records. Has anyone else seen this happen before?

 

[lupaglupa]

It happens a fair amount. Sometimes you can tease the records apart and tell who is who, sometimes you can't. It's pretty frustrating!

 

[RedRover]

I've never seen this before, but this week I saw it twice.

The first came about when I was helping someone else. The second was in my own research. Feel free to check my logic. Both concern Confederate soldiers from Tennessee:

TWO MEN WITH THE SAME NAME IN THE SAME REGIMENT:

John E. Spencers — https://www.fold3.com/image/7742862...6VfQL0SUaCeTFgtUimktD_ZFCUJkhlDKswKojoR2IltGY

These are all mixed up together, but they make two internally consistent different men:

1. Prvt. John E. Spencers, enlisted Nov 1862 at Estill Springs in Franklin County, Tenn. (south Tennessee near the Alabama border). He was killed in an assault at Beans Station near Knoxville, Tenn, 14 Dec 1863.
2. Capt. John E. Spencer enlisted Dec 1861 at Camp Trousdale, in Portland, Sumner County, Tennessee (North of Nashville on the Kentucky border). Given Rank of Captain in April 1862. Wounded at Stones River, active through all of 1864, and paroled at Appomattox.

I was unable to find pension records for the Captan.

TWO REGIMENTS HAD THE SAME NAME FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THE WAR:

Members of my family were in the 35th Regiment Tennessee Infantry. They lived in Warren County, Tennessee. My 3rd great grandfather Asa Hill was in the 35th. His 3rd cousin was the colonel (later general) of the regiment. I had long guessed that all Hills in the regiment were relatives and that Asa's brother Radner Hill was also in the regiment. But I have been unable to find pension records for him to prove it and the CMSR for Radner only has one card. It says he was wounded at Perryville (the card says "over" but the image of the back is missing)

Rad H. Hill of the 35th Tenn. (Company D) — https://www.fold3.com/image/76766524

However, the 35th Reg. was originally known as the 5th Tenn., for the first two years of the war, until confusion reigned because there already was a 5th Tenn from Western Tennessee (see: https://tnmap.tn.gov/civilwar/unithistoriesvol1/C_35_Inf_Rgt.pdf see especially p. 249). So my ancestor's regiment was renamed the 35th. But in early war records and battle maps they are often id-ed as the 5th Tenn. It's a royal pain in the butt to sort through ... Anyway, on a whim I checked the 5th Tenn that stayed the 5th (let's call them the "real" 5th) to see if anything was there — there was!

R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th Tenn (Company B) — https://www.fold3.com/image/76766514

There was a R.C. Hill who was a member of the real 5th (company B). All the muster roll records call him "R.C. Hill" and say he enlisted in Paris, Tenn., 20 May 1861. (in far western Tennessee). Muster roll records show R.C. Hill was marked present from May 1862 to Aug 1863. He was promoted to Sargent in the summer of 1863. He was out sick in the fall of 1863.

But in this file there are records labeled "Radner Hill" or "R. Hill." These records come from a prisoner of war roll and prisoner exchange records. They report on a man born in Warren County, Tenn., who was wounded and captured after the battle of Perryville. He lost his right arm from a gun shot wound at that battle and discharged due to disability on 26 Dec 1862 in Mississippi. They as note him as a member of Company D.

The muster roll records are all for the R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th, the prisoner of war and discharge records are all for my Radner. A man who lost an arm would not be promoted to Sargent the following summer.
Note especially the penciled in note about the 35th Inf. on the back of his discharged papers: https://www.fold3.com/image/69754570

Also notable that R.C. Hill was noted as 24 years old in May 1864 while "R. Hill" was 18 years old in Dec 1862. Not an unheard of error if they were the same man, but just another sign of irregularity (my Radner Hill was 26 in the 1870 census, so he would have been about 18 in 1862),


Anyway ... having seen some goofy confederate CMSRs I'd never seen ones quite like these. And I saw two in one week. It just underscores the importance of creating a timeline of events as you work through records. Has anyone else seen this happen before?

My kin in the 12th Virginia Cavalry had some similar confusion of records. Company E was raised and commanded by Captain James Markham Marshall. One of his lieutenants was named James Markham Marshall (a cousin of the captain), and one of the privates (my gr. gr. grandfather) was named James Markham Marshall. their compiled service records are intermixed, and historians assuming them correct have made a little mess of things. For example, there is an 1865 parole for a J.M.M. in the records of the lieutenant (no rank given on the parole), so he is generally shown by family and historians as paroled. But that is the private's parole. The lieutenant was wounded at Brandy Station and never rejoined his command according to his own account.

there were also two Thomas Marshall's in the same company. And the 12th Virginia Cavalry was originally designated the 10th Virginia Cavalry in mid-62. Evidently re-named in the fall.

 

[nc native]

On Fold3 researching the records for one of my ancestors was a little confusing because there were records for two men named David Honeycutt in Company C of the 24th North Carolina Infantry. My ancestor was a Corporal and the other David Honeycutt was a Lieutenant so the differences in rank did help distinguish these soldiers.

 

[J. D. Stevens]

TWO MEN WITH THE SAME NAME IN THE SAME REGIMENT

You did a good job of digging out the records in both cases you mentioned. Researching in the CSMR's has taught me one thing, never take them as all inclusive or 100% accurate. The information they provide is most useful, but sometimes it requires drilling down to find the rest of the story. Back in the good old days before computers (BC), it required hours of cranking through micro film and personally searching through dusty archives. Today, after digitizing (AD), most of our research can be done at home sitting in front of our computers, but we still have to be alert for irregularities.

Many veterans served in two or more regiments. Veterans have been found with records from both regiments under one, but not in the other. Their records were overlooked until it was discovered they had served in a previous regiment. In Texas, several regiments were given the same numerical designation. Some were changed later during the war, some were not. Although rare, a few veterans had their records assigned to the wrong numerical regiment.

 

[digne]

R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th Tenn (Company B) — https://www.fold3.com/image/76766514

There was a R.C. Hill who was a member of the real 5th (company B). All the muster roll records call him "R.C. Hill" and say he enlisted in Paris, Tenn., 20 May 1861. (in far western Tennessee). Muster roll records show R.C. Hill was marked present from May 1862 to Aug 1863. He was promoted to Sargent in the summer of 1863. He was out sick in the fall of 1863.

But in this file there are records labeled "Radner Hill" or "R. Hill." These records come from a prisoner of war roll and prisoner exchange records. They report on a man born in Warren County, Tenn., who was wounded and captured after the battle of Perryville. He lost his right arm from a gun shot wound at that battle and discharged due to disability on 26 Dec 1862 in Mississippi. They as note him as a member of Company D.

It wouldn't let me edit the OP. But I realized the link here was wrong. This is the correct link:

R.C. Hill of the "real" 5th Tenn (Company B) — https://www.fold3.com/image/69754410