Trench question

[atlantis]

Did either side make any effort to keep trench's dry. A wet trench can play heck with your feet and the effect on unit morale. Given that so many on both sides were treated as little more than cannon fodder I am curious if the engineers had pioneer details working to keep the trench bottom dry.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thanks Danny. I have found that short history. From all your posts, it seems everyone is using that same info. I liked the NPS link to the organization of the Army of Relief. That will come in handy for other uses. I found another source that mentioned their strength going into Chickamauga battle which didn't agree with the 350 number in this history. More details I'm trying to sort out.

@Rhea Cole said I was researching where the 19th Louisiana was not. Actually, I'm researching where there is no mention of where they were. They spent a long time in the Pensacola area. Haven't found any record of what they did around Tullahoma and on to the siege of Jackson. Then they missed Franklin. I haven't gotten into that last one yet, but I assume it was logistics of advancing north or they had other guard duties.

I suggest that "…where they were not.." & "..where there is no mention…" is a distinction without a difference. For whatever reason the 19th's record has voids. That is more common than you might think.

At this point finding soldier's letters, journals or letters to Confederate Veteran. Is there a news paper published in the area the 19th was raised up from? You are looking for a home run. Most likely that isn't going to come from the internet.

Good hunting.

 

[Saphroneth]

Something that might work when tracing a unit is to look in the ORs for the places where they're mentioned in a parent formation, and then see where that parent formation was. You can also look for them by the name of the commanding officer.

For example, December 10 1864 (just after Franklin) 19th LA is part of Gibson's brigade, in Clayton's division. They're also listed in this formation in September.

Looking at the ORs, Volume XXXIX includes:

The War of the Rebellion : a compilation of the official records of the Union and Confederate armies. / Pub. under the direction of the ... Secretary of War ... ser.1:v.39:pt.1:Reports.

Gibson's brigade making a significant river crossing.



More importantly, though:

Clayton's report for the period of Franklin indicates that his division did not launch an attack at Franklin. So consequently his division, which included Gibson's brigade, which included the 19th LA, did not launch an attack at Franklin and was thus not seriously engaged.

 

[danny]

Thanks Danny. I have found that short history. From all your posts, it seems everyone is using that same info. I liked the NPS link to the organization of the Army of Relief. That will come in handy for other uses. I found another source that mentioned their strength going into Chickamauga battle which didn't agree with the 350 number in this history. More details I'm trying to sort out.

@Rhea Cole said I was researching where the 19th Louisiana was not. Actually, I'm researching where there is no mention of where they were. They spent a long time in the Pensacola area. Haven't found any record of what they did around Tullahoma and on to the siege of Jackson. Then they missed Franklin. I haven't gotten into that last one yet, but I assume it was logistics of advancing north or they had other guard duties.

Sorry about the repetitive info in the text links

 

[DixieRifles]

Sorry about the repetitive info in the text links

Im sorry there isnt a better history out there somewhere. Everyone posts the sane words.
I hope to first a diary or history written by a veteran.

 

[Saphroneth]

Im sorry there isnt a better history out there somewhere. Everyone posts the sane words.
I hope to first a diary or history written by a veteran.

I may have something for you.

Louisianians in the Western Confederacy

The Louisiana Brigade served the Confederacy in the Army of Tennessee, battling on the western frontier. Commanded by Daniel W. Adams and Randall L. Gibson, the brigade fought from the Battle of Shiloh in April 1862 to the surrender at Meridian in May 1865. This volume follows the formation and...

www.google.co.uk

This book is a history of the Adams-Gibson brigade in the Civil War, which is the brigade of which the 19th LA was part from April 1863 through to the surrender. I can't say if it has information about their service before then, but that should cover well over half their wartime service (and most of their time in battle, except Shiloh's heavy casualties - for which a Shiloh book should suffice.)

At best, it might even point you at something to check.

 

[DixieRifles]

I may have something for you.

Louisianians in the Western Confederacy

The Louisiana Brigade served the Confederacy in the Army of Tennessee, battling on the western frontier. Commanded by Daniel W. Adams and Randall L. Gibson, the brigade fought from the Battle of Shiloh in April 1862 to the surrender at Meridian in May 1865. This volume follows the formation and...

www.google.co.uk

This book is a history of the Adams-Gibson brigade in the Civil War, which is the brigade of which the 19th LA was part from April 1863 through to the surrender. I can't say if it has information about their service before then, but that should cover well over half their wartime service (and most of their time in battle, except Shiloh's heavy casualties - for which a Shiloh book should suffice.)

Great minds think alike. I thought about searching Google Books. At first, I thought I would be able to download this entire book. It does let you view 21 pages and even search the contents, but nothing more.

Actually, this is the first brigade the 19th Louisiana Regiment was in. In May 1863, they were placed in the newer brigade with all Louisiana units commanded by Adams until he was wounded & captured at Chickamauga. This may tell me what they did down in Florida.

 

[Saphroneth]

Actually, this is the first brigade the 19th Louisiana Regiment was in.

I would have thought it was the second, since it's the Adams-Gibson one!

 

[gunny]

Thanks Danny. I have found that short history. From all your posts, it seems everyone is using that same info. I liked the NPS link to the organization of the Army of Relief. That will come in handy for other uses. I found another source that mentioned their strength going into Chickamauga battle which didn't agree with the 350 number in this history. More details I'm trying to sort out.

@Rhea Cole said I was researching where the 19th Louisiana was not. Actually, I'm researching where there is no mention of where they were. They spent a long time in the Pensacola area. Haven't found any record of what they did around Tullahoma and on to the siege of Jackson. Then they missed Franklin. I haven't gotten into that last one yet, but I assume it was logistics of advancing north or they had other guard duties.

I recommend doing what I did for my regimental history. Luckily, I had a lot of first hand accounts from members of the Sixteenth Tennessee covering a pretty broad spectrum of the war, however, I had some significant voids as well. I went and did an in depth search of regiments of their brigade - paying close attention to when they became brigaded with them as well as if they were transferred from the Sixteenth's brigade. When this was impossible, I did the same for brigades in the division they were assigned to. This works better the longer the war goes on, as the number of men in the regiments and brigades shrink. Point is, we can tell their story as a whole. So when a specific regiment's story can't be told by members of that unit, you can bet that by 1863 and beyond, the regiments that compose their brigade experienced the same battles, boredom, food and disciplining that they did. Again, it gets tougher beyond brigade, but you may at least learn where their division was and hit the official records for leads. Good luck!

 

[Saphroneth]

Then they missed Franklin. I haven't gotten into that last one yet, but I assume it was logistics of advancing north or they had other guard duties.

As noted, their division happened to get to Franklin late and was not engaged, so that probably answers that one!

 

[DixieRifles]

For example, December 10 1864 (just after Franklin) 19th LA is part of Gibson's brigade, in Clayton's division. They're also listed in this formation in September.

Thanks. I have a copy of John Scales boon on Forrest and Zimmerman's book "Mud, Blood & Cold Steel" that should cover the retreat from Nashville.

I realized one area of confusion that I had about the "campaign" in Pensacola. There were 2 separate campaigns.
1- The 9th Mississippi and other units were sent to Pensacola and served under General Bragg and they exchanged fire across the bay. It included Battle of Santa Rosa Island and Battle of Fort McRee. Then Bragg pulled out and headed to Shiloh.
2- It was after Shiloh that Confederate forces were sent back down not to Pensacola but to Mobile. The 19th Louisiana was sent to Camp Pollard (at Pollard AL), which is close to Pensacola and remained there about 8 months. Still have not found anything about this period.
Sources come from several on-line sites including Pensapedia.

 

[Saphroneth]

2- It was after Shiloh that Confederate forces were sent back down not to Pensacola but to Mobile. The 19th Louisiana was sent to Camp Pollard (at Pollard AL), which is close to Pensacola and remained there about 8 months. Still have not found anything about this period.

Chapter 4: Winter 1862 Camp Pollard, AL

c. 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 October 1862, after several weeks in Knoxville, the Lookout Artillery was ordered to report to Mobile, AL. Capt. Barry recalls: The United States forces at …

captainbarryslookoutartillery.com

This has some mention of them:


Jany 18 /63


Dear Sister …6 days ago I rec' a letter from you in which was one from Brother Rob and as I have nothing to do this evening I will try and write you a line...

Yesterday we were ordered to prepare for review by Gen Buckner now at Mobile . The field was a large oblong level plain containing about 30 acres. The 19th LA Regiment came out and dressed on their guides occupying the extreme left.

 

[67th Tigers]

Let me point out that breastworks are built up, not dug down. Trenches were used as obstacles in front of breastworks, but fortifications consisted of packed earth built up in front of the fighting position.

Digging trenches as fighting positions didn't become a thing for about another half-century, due to the effects of high-explosives.

 

[History hoarder63]

Did either side make any effort to keep trench's dry. A wet trench can play heck with your feet and the effect on unit morale. Given that so many on both sides were treated as little more than cannon fodder I am curious if the engineers had pioneer details working to keep the trench bottom dry.

I don't think any consideration was given to drainage in trench's dug during active campaigning. I do believe that efforts probably were made in some of the siege lines and more permanent redoubts and batteries. Probably construction of French drains ect.

 

[Saphroneth]

There were rifle pits, and I suspect there may have been situations where the earth for a breastwork came from the "friendly" side of the breastwork. But the difference is I presume whether your aim is to get an obstruction from enemy fire to the level of your head, or to get your head below ground level.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Did either side make any effort to keep trench's dry. A wet trench can play heck with your feet and the effect on unit morale. Given that so many on both sides were treated as little more than cannon fodder I am curious if the engineers had pioneer details working to keep the trench bottom dry.

I am under the impression that they would account for drainage in trenches and works that would intended for longer term usage such as the defenses around Atlanta or Washington D.C.. Most trenches that were hastily thrown up, for example during the Overland campaign/early Petersburg, did not take drainage into consideration.